Amy vs Mitsurugi

T

tresto

[09] Warrior
Anti Mitsu !

Here is what I've found out or been told so far :

- Duck 2nd hit of RLC A
- Punish everything you can (see punish thread)
- Don't use B+K auto-gi too much if he likes B6
- Pressure him as much as you can
- If you get mixed up between 1A/236B, use a dummy in training that spams 3B, 1A, 236B randomly until you get over 100% good blocks
- Learn to just ukemi 2KB
- Don't overuse 6BB because he ducks quite a bit
- Don't whiff ... Try to get close and be sure to hit
- Be careful when approaching, if you're careless you'll get hit by his B6, b:A or 66A+B moves that are VERY damaging (+ wakeup/ground game)

Any other advice ? I feel powerless vs. a good Mitsu, and even an average one will give me a lot of trouble. He just spaces slightly too much and my 1A / other things won't hit. Also, even if I'm at advantage, a random 3A / B6 will cost me ~ 60dmg so that's not nice either...

BTW when I use my secondary character Voldo I'm OK, so it's more of a Amy-Mitsu matchup issue I think... And I want to be able to win with Amy !!
 
Amy is a better character compared to mitsu, but he has all the tools to deal with her.

local amy player always duck RLC A second hit and punish with 33B (O_O) I think he's inhuman ))
Mist KB you will have to duck 33B too. or duck, get up 3B.

Amy is very hard to beat if she uses a lot of different pokes that confuse you, for ex 6B variations, 6A, 8K, 4KK, 4BB etc
so when you have to anticipate many moves from her its hard to put up effective defence.

I think 4A is move that gives a lot of trouble to me when I try to wake up, I will have to use 1A to stop it, but amy punishes with ws B and have a mixup.

another tip is when mitsu has the 66A+B/~G situation go for B+K it's troublesome to deal with it sometimes, but if you overuse it I can punish you for doing that =)
 
Great, thanks.

Also I must say that if Mitsu is in front of me using mist or relic I kind of freeze because I don't know how to counter this properly. I also eat quite a bit of tech traps.

Any tips on how to avoid this ?
 
For tech traps - check out mitsu SA there is a tech trap thread with escapes. some more situational stuff will be posted post EVO ))

On relic. depends on what situation he uses to enter RLC. for ex if MST 6 blocked 1A is a great solution except far range. 1A is generally good vs relic. if you see him charge the UB just 3B. but if you're near the wall that might be hard to deal with, just turtle/interrupt as you see fit. but keep in mind that RLC B near the wall is slightly less of a threat than rlc A or ch rlc K, and also RLC B can be punished very well if close to the wall so mitsu has to take care. But overall its difficult b/c of the mindgames involved, it is more important to gain psychological adv over opponent so he will hesitate using some options, than its easier.
if you block 11K for ex you can go for throw attempt it will trade with RLC A i think here so no juggle for mitsu. it also isnt possible to duck throw with B+K MST shift in this situation. You will get a backthrow if it connects. So mitsu will have to use RLC 2 (duck) than feel free to launch.

Near the edge... go for 44A+B of course its risky, but it will make mitsu use reckless options like RLC A (if you block it also 44A+B hard but doable (i'm not 100% sure if it will be guaranteed punish if RLC A doesnt end in MST) but still mitsu will have to consider this risk, thus a-GI, UB or MST shifts are out of question near the edge. meaning he only is left with poor option select that will eventually make his stop using RLC near the edge (but not near the wall, although some cool wallgame comes from 44A+B back to the wall)
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btw dont know where to post it, but I think I captured some cool gameplay from Edge this time. Actually so much was recorded I dont want to look through all them. lol


my gameplay was unimpressive though, well. Id still like to hear your opinion and advice to Edge. (and relay it to him)
 
I'm losing so many matches these days that on strategy I feel I kind of suck.

But I'm OK to talk about the technical side.

- 2KB-> just ukemi -> 4A is VERY GOOD I like a lot. But mustn't be 100% 4A. He got hit at 2:28 by CH 66B. Just 5 seconds after he didn't repeat the mistake and got a free 6:6B 6:6BA

- nice CH 33B and step ~33B
- I like wall stuff with 33B 66B+K 236K:A wallspla 6A+B,A
- he punished both 66BB with 6:6B 6:6BA

- doesn't use 66B~8_2. Very very good move though
- uses 8A+B to hit grounded. It's easy to roll. It's rolled at 0:32 for example. as a general ground hitter, 33B is much better. 33B tracks a lot more. And 8A+B is unsafe
- after 2B+K, 6A+B,A with slight delay does more damage (~50 vs ~35 i think). Doesn't work on every character. Works on Mitsu, Asta, Hilde, Yoshi (gotta test some more)

- at 2:25 he did 44B after A+B,K yet this move is only -1 on block. and he got hit by FC 1B. He should have done 2A, 3A or BB. I suppose you did FC 1B to avoid 6BB and get CH. I don't see a good chance for 44B to work well if you're at -1. Amy's 44B is so weak, nothing like Raph or Xianghua.

- no use of 3A, 2A, 3K. Very good moves though.

Didn't punish 3B at 1:30 but did 1A instead.

I feel like he gets a lot of damage from
MST 6 (block) ~ RLC[A] (CH) ~ MST 6BB
I don't know how to counter it properly because freezing in front of stance waiting for unsafe move isn't too good either...

In second round at 0:50, after RLC [K] hit, he should have done immediate 1A because after that move you're at -6 on hit, so the move catches every option except RLC jump.
Also he gets hit at round 3 by MST A as a back dash counter.


All this stuff shows that playing vs mitsu - particularly with Amy - requires very much "rigueur". I don't know how to translate this French word properly, it means being very precise and consistent in what you do.
Step->guard, dash->guard, be careful at every distance, punish consistently. But also (and that's mind game) make the right decision and punish Mitsu for being wrong. VERY HARD because Mitsu can keep at sword tip distance and not even get punished or risk CH.


BTW I don't always apply this advice properly myself, need more training so it goes from "should do that" to "do it".
 
tresto: 66B~2_8 is nice but very risky. Some local players use it rather well, but I think you need to know your opp very well to utilize it

3B 8A+B is guaranteed and better damage and same wake up options as 33B, where it wiffed - its like very strange, its not rollable

Edge used to do plenty of 3A but recently changed to other moves to cut step. 3A is only super good post 33B on block where it TC the throw attempts. sometimes I get GI-happy and 3A becomes high risk/low reward move, so him using 3A just didnt get in the vid.

on RLC [K] hit... no you cannot interrupt with anything at all.. rlc A will beat everything that is certain especially 1A... maybe even rlc K will CH it. You are refering to wiki data which is incorrect.

The point of 44B was to counter fc 1B/6K/throw which I do quite a lot from FC vs Amy. so he probably wanted to get some extra damage. It was good for him vs FC 1B b/c I hit detect and saw the counter, then did follow it up, but he was safe and could punish too bad he was too greedy for wall splat and used 44A+B too late (b/c normally he would punish with 33B w/o hestitation, but this time he was like... "wait! theres a wall behind me, I can win!")
 
About 66B~2_8 I agree it's risky, but very rewarding too. It's a sort of "super step" to me. Using it sometimes is nice anyway. I like to do 66B~2 (opponent whiffs) ~ 33B combo.

Mitsu's frame data seems very inaccurate indeed. This is a pity. This was only theory anyway, I don't manage to interrupt after RLC [K].

True that 1st hit of RLC A is s-mid not high. I feel stances ARE very rewarding vs Amy, as opponed to what you said in Mitsu matchup chart, because they are so hard to interrupt.

About the 44B I agree about the point, why he did it and stuff, but it didn't work : it got CH from the FC 1B during the backdash because Amy's 44B backdash sucks so much. This is why I say that this move is very weak compared to Xianghua or Raph. And also how could it be "I saw the counter" ? You threw out the FC 1B instantly after blocking A+B,K. If feels more like anticipating 6BB than anything else.
 
tresto: yes, mitsu frame data on wiki is very inaccurate, see corresponding topic in mitsu SA - the data there is correct. but with stances you have to test for yourself whats interruptible and whats not, that is not possible to calculate it (I think)

Maybe stance is only as good as a player takes it, maybe I'm not using it all too well. Recently I've been able to set it up more often vs amy, but I still feel uneasy at ranged game vs her.

now to elaborate on my previous comment
what happened after A+B,K blocked. I used FC 1B looking for counterhit. If I see it hits block or normal hit I will not follow up (although its slightly difficult and sometimes I fail my hitdetect). It is very difficult to hit detect FC 1B so if I see opp move I will do both hits. that makes it easier most of the time.
So I saw FC 1B score a CH and followed it up with a second B. but Edge knew FC 1B is a possibility and he knows it doesnt launch 44B in this situation. so he can use this opportunity to punish FC 1BB wiff. but he hesitated b/c he wanted a wallcombo. and missed the punishment.
 
OK so I worked a bit more on the matchup. I used to have trouble punishing 1A, so it was used as a free TC or antistep move. I thought since it was TC, I couldn't use WS B or 6BB, the only moves fast enough ; that are high. But actually the move recovers standing.

1A punishment :
at max range 6BB : 15dmg (can be hit from FC : does RCC)

at closer range : WS B (i14) that stuns
Followup by 66B, 66B+K, 236KK
I have to test if the stun can be broken fast enough to avoir 66B or not (1KA 66B is guaranteed)

Followup by 6BB is probably not breakable at all.

Will be testing for 11A later if it works the same.
 
tresto: 1A is punishable by ws B yes
but WS B stun is totally breakable. Nothing is guaranteed afterwards.
11A is maybe punishable by 6BB, but not ws B.
You can punish 22_88B with 6BB by the way.
 
thanks Belial
I have a couple local Mitsu players I want to beat so I'll be filling this up a lot !

I will be testing lots of stuff. WS B may give very good advantage on hit even if stun is broken, and it does 16dmg which is equivalent to 6BB.
 
OK so right now I'm into two aspects :
- risk/reward with B+K auto-gi.
the threat of B6 seems so high that it kind of breaks the mid auto-gi
while I can use A+B sometimes, getting launched by 236B isn't nice either

Other thing : 3A at slight disadvantage. I just faced a Mitsu player who liked to do 3A at slight disadvantage.
Eg I do 6BB (hit), 1A and 1A gets CH ! Since 3A actually stuns it feels very dangerous to continue attacking with Amy. I' m not sure about who to deal with this, particularly the pressure once I'm knocked down.

Any opinions ?
BTW I also have very much trouble once I get knocked down by Mitsurugi...
 
It seems that what you lack is not character knowledge, but tactial fundamentals.

b6 is a rather weak option vs Amy . Most amy moves TC's she also has great step, so there is no real point using this move. To counter B+K - > 6B+K~MST 6B / 66A+B / iFC 1B (CH) are the best/most damaging options.

What I'm saying, if you have trouble with b6, you are either being too predictable with your B+K, or are placing your moves incorrectly.

From Amy perspective
Mitsu does mid/throw mixup. -> aGI / TC are good options
Mitsu does mid/2KB mixup -> step/3G are good options
Mitsu uses slow options or step to counter aGI -> interrupt with 6:6B or any TC is good option

from mitsu prespective:
Amy uses a lot of aGI or TC moves -> 2KB becomes very good.
Amy uses a lot of aGI or step -> throw becomes very good
Amy uses a lot of TC interrupt or step -> 66A (or 3A) becomes very good

...
On 3A now. it is a bad idea to use 6BB 1A. IT is another example of how your ineffective (or predictable) atack flow creates an opportunity for your opponent to take advantage of otherwise risky option. 6BB leaves you at +2. from here on if your opponent uses a lot of backdash (which is the only reason I can see for you using 1A) use 66B instead. if he tries to interrupt its around 70dmg I think (66B, 6:6B, 6:6BA), and even if he backdashes he's in FC. If he stops interrupting just do another 6BB it will score a CH on backdash and even on block you have uninterruptible options (236BBBB) or just 236 into mix up.
It is very hard to explain all the possibilities open to you, b/c mindgames in SC4 are very complicated with a lot of options to use by both sides, but the key is in adapting to your opponent in such a way, that no his options would be effective against two of yours AND/OR deal the maximum damage out of his predictability.
The above example is a great illustration to that.
post 6BB on hit
6:6B is great against interrupt and FC
another 6BB is godd against interrupt and backdash (and even step)

BUT if you are certain (or feel like it) your opponent will try to interrupt go for 6:6B untill he changes to something else.
To put is simple you first have to limit your opponents options (and maximize your own chances to guess correctly) by creating an effective atack/defence pattern. Then you have to get the most damage out of your opponents predictability.

On wake ups.. mitsurugi wake up may be intimidating, but Amy is even more so. use more 2B+K, less 1A. always go for a KD option even at a risk of interrupt b/c the profit is immense for Amy. If you get KD'ed by mitsu always tech/roll backwards most of the time you can take one hit and get up safely.
against relic, after blocking RLC K do a throw (range dep) or WS B, it will force him to either duck or RLC A, from there you can do whatever situation calls for.
 
Thanks for your ideas Belial. I appreciate that you always take the time to answer my questions. You are right about the fact that I have trouble finding the right strategy.

Indeed I use 1A because of distance. I also use it as a stepkiller, and for the fact that it's pretty fast (i17). Getting 2B+K stepped and eating the step~22A combo is never fun. Move of Amy's other moves can be stepped easily left (or slow 236A is guarded).

The advice that I think is the most interesting is "always go for knockdown" and "limit the opponent's options at first even if it's unsafe to do so". I also nearly never use 6:6B outside of punishment. I'll be trying to use it more and see how it goes.

I'm not sure I understand this part : "against relic, after blocking RLC K do a throw (range dep) or WS B, it will force him to either duck or RLC A, from there you can do whatever situation calls for". Do you mean force the opponent to do RLC[A] so that I can punish it after ? BTW isn't the evading RLC B a good option for him either against WS B ? (throws don't connect most of the time, Amy has such poor throw range...)
 
to counter step you can just use your spacing of 236 if you find it hard.
forgot to mention 4A which is very good vs RLC

edit: yep, you have to force him to do unsafe options like RLC A or RLC B and anticipate/punish it.
 
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