Astaroth Buffs?

CaliJared

[09] Warrior
It seems to be a consensus in the Calibur community that Astaroth is one of the weakest characters in the game. I can give a big list of reasons why I think this is the case, but I want to know what other Astaroth players want from a (most likely) future balance patch. Not to say that he's a horrible character, as he does have certain strengths, but he is definitely lacking compared to almost every other character in the cast.

For me, I'd like to see a few things changed/added to the big man to make him a little more viable. I don't think it would be realistic to ask for ALL of these changes, but I'd like to see at least a few of them.

- Bring back his BA string from SC2. This was his B followed by a quick horizontal high. As of now, his B only leads to other vertical attacks, and opponents can completely take away these options with a sidestep as soon as they block B. This would give him another option to prevent a one size fits all defensive option and make people think a little more while on defense in the match up. I would say I'd like it to jail, but this could lead to the same problem as before, as if they step after blocking a B they might just block the A follow up or step if anything comes out. They brought back 66A+B from SC2, why not bring back something actually useful?

- Bull Rush KD on NH. This is something I hated in SCV, and I still hate it now. Because it doesn't knock down, he loses a big tool to deter people from ducking. It is already much more linear than it has ever been, so why not buff it when it actually hits? Astaroth should be scary at the ring edge, and this sort of declaws him a bit since he's got no scary mid with his opponent's back to the wall/edge. I'd also like to see a bit more push back on block, but no change to the negative frames. I can actually take or leave this change, but I feel like it would change match ups with short range/quick characters to help him out, since he's already super slow, but in match ups where he wants to be up close (Ivy?), going for the Bull Rush might not be as worth doing a different mid if it gets blocked since you lose some ground.

- More mobile PT. Back in older iterations of Astaroth, he was able to move during the start up of the first hit, and had more mobility during the move. This was extremely strong in SC2, but I'm not really asking for a return of those properties exactly. Through each game, the move has gotten worse, becoming more negative on block and losing a lot of mobility. I'd like to see the ability to move into the foreground and background, and a little more movement forward or back to make up for how negative each hit is on block. It would probably make more sense to decrease the damage of the hit throw because the move would be more viable, and I'd be totally ok with losing damage in exchange for usability.

- Make 66B a mid at closer than tip range. His mids are already lacking, and this would help block/whiff punish moves that recover crouching from a good range. It may be redundant considering bull rush exists, but it could be a useful change.

- Do SOMETHING with Soul Charge! I don't have any specifics for this one, but I feel like the idea behind SC is to cover up weaknesses that your character has normally. Unfortunately I don't feel like Astaroth benefits in this way. From what I can tell, his strengths are just made slightly stronger, while all the holes in his game still exist. 22_88B becomes a BA, but is still as linear as ever, and armor is still relatively useless since most strings will beat it out anyway. I'd like to see them do something to his SC to make it maybe cover some holes he has in his game, even giving a speed boost to some of his moves to make them more useful in this state.

- Bring back spin stun from 44[A]. This already takes a long time to come out, so if your opponent gets hit by it they should pay the consequences! Would also be good to deter RE and GI. It hurts my soul every time I hit someone with a full charged 44A and they don't spin for a combo like they used to.

These are a few things that I thought of, I'd love to see what other Asta faithfuls have in mind as well. I realize that a lot of these changes are un-nerfing nerfs he's received over the years, and that could possibly be due to my own lack of creativity, but it's also because I want this character to resemble the character I used to love to use in the past, instead of the shell of himself that he's become in this game. I know Discord is more popular these days, but there are plenty of you on these forums and I wanna hear what you have to say!
 
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Malec

[09] Warrior
-RE needs to be faster, Asta is the slowest Char in the game and sometimes gets pressured as hell, you would think, cool there is a new mechanic to help you out with that, but Astas RE is just too slow.

-make his revenge moves have super armor (multiple hits) or armor the single hit but through EVERYTHING including lows and break attacks.

-I would like to have a changed input for his 66/44 A+G throws, I have a lot of people ducking, when I run up to them close in throw range, well I would like to use crouch throws, but I get 66 A+G every time cause I am in 8way run

-3A, 6A+B, 44[A] have no real impact hitting even on CH to discourage stepping. There should be damaging follow ups guaranteed.

-his CE is bad, it can be ducked, stepped, jumped, it doesn't hit out of a lot of stances AND it's extremely slow. I am fine with ducking and stepping but it should definitely hit airborne opponents.

-4A+G LH against jumping? When is this ever going to happen? Who is jumping without pushing a button???
 
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Foxbot

[09] Warrior
First, let's fix the bugs:
1) 4B+K cannot connect with air throws on 2P side.
2) After 22[K] quake stun in close range, 6B will auto whiff.
3) PT has no hitbox behind him (but of course top tier Aswel's spinning blade has hitbox behind him)
4) Remove being able to glitch step Asta's CE after animation.
5) 3B whiffs against small female characters laying on the ground.

Actual buffs In order of importance (#1 being the most important):

1) Faster RE. Too many times I am punished for guessing right. Alternatively, maybe his RE should be cancel-able.
2) Change the command of 44A+G to 66A+G4 so we can use it to approach/pursue enemies
3) Make CH 3A or CH 6A+B lead into a decent combo
4) Make A+B the same animation and LH as ws[ B ]
5) BA string
6) Make either 4AA or 4AB a NCC but unsafe.
....

Buff wish list (nice to have's but not necessary):
1) Make 66[K] useful offensively ... Give it tracking or armor ?
2) Rework these LH: 4A+G, 6A+B, 66B ...
3) Make AB actually useful again ... it was too strong in SC3 and SC4 but now it's really terrible.
4) rework 6B+K / 6[B+K]
5) Since we have a useless 3K, why not just remove bK series and make a 3K crouch throw series?
6) Not sure why BB6 and B6B have such similar commands?

Finally, I would say Asta's LH RE B needs to be nerfed. This move feels too dirty hahahaha.
 

Foxbot

[09] Warrior
No I meant that right now you can't pursue someone backing away with 44A+G without showing a bit of a stuttering, something like 66~44A+G or 6624A+G. Would be nice if we don't need to do that stuttering.

I hope that 44A+G becomes 66A+G4 and 44A+G2 becomes 66A+G1 ...
 

CaliJared

[09] Warrior
I get the common input error of trying to dash up and do 3A+G and getting the revenge throw instead. There's definitely a big buffer window for that input.
 

Malec

[09] Warrior
No I meant that right now you can't pursue someone backing away with 44A+G without showing a bit of a stuttering, something like 66~44A+G or 6624A+G. Would be nice if we don't need to do that stuttering.

I hope that 44A+G becomes 66A+G4 and 44A+G2 becomes 66A+G1 ...
Seriously try 66[1]A+G (hold they 1) it works without stuttering
 

ShinJin

[09] Warrior
So Astaroth is arguable the worst character in the game, and i know namco read these forums so i'm gonna post up some ideas on how to make this guy actually decent.

1. Make 4AA a NC.
Reason: Astaroths punishment game is terrible, lots of characters can spam him down with 3B and other moves that 90% of the cast can punish. this gives him an option to at least punish people up close. sieg has 6AA and it does way more damage and wall splats and is only a few frames slower.


2. 4AB NCC and make it -14
Reason: We have no interrupt combo, 4AB has always been that move, it was never OP, but it was a core tool that we need to keep people off us, make it unsafe so it can't be spammed.

3. 1(A)A no longer jails
Reason: there is no mix up between that and 1(A)B so basically you are getting punished no matter which one you do.

4. Bigger/fixed hit boxes on 66K, 4B, 6B, 22B, 44B
Reason: if they step and you wiff fine, you guessed wrong, but when someone is standing still and those moves wiff it's not on, they need a 20% (BR) - 40% (22B 44B) wider hit boxes

5. 44(A) LH spin on RE break
Reason: The move is slow, you can interrupt it on reaction, but it's job is to shut down all movement but as it stands 35 damage and being flung so far away you can get up for free makes it bad.

6. 5 extra damage on 6B, and 10 extra damage on 22K
Reason: 6B is a bread and butter move, but it's combo is not doing enough, this will give you 30% combo instead of a 23%

7. 6A+B -14 instead of -18
Reason You should not be launched for such a low pay off move.

8. 6(B+K) armour active at !10 and armours through 40 damage instead of 35.
Reason: when you are being spammed down waiting 14 frames to get armour is not enough, and it doesn't go through enough moves, If they gave him the buffed 4AA then this could be skipped.

9. RE 4 frames faster on release, so it's the same speed as the fastest ones .
Reason: anyone that argues against this is retarded. i dont think yoshi should be able to BBB and then just side step against astaroth if he RE'ed it, thats BS.

10. 10 extra damage on 214A+G/236A+G
Reason: Right now it takes 4 B throws to kill someone, and 6 A throws, WAY too many.
 
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CaliJared

[09] Warrior
3. 1(A)A no longer jails
Reason: there is no mix up between that and 1(A)B so basically you are getting punished no matter which one you do.
This string has never been a mix up, and frankly, considering his overall weaknesses, this wouldn’t really do much to help him in any real way.

I mostly agree with your other suggestions though. Especially 6A+B. Why is it so unsafe???
 

Foxbot

[09] Warrior
1. Make 4AA a NC.
Reason: Astaroths punishment game is terrible, lots of characters can spam him down with 3B and other moves that 90% of the cast can punish. this gives him an option to at least punish people up close. sieg has 6AA and it does way more damage and wall splats and is only a few frames slower.
Asta's punish game has never been great, although it's definitely gotten worse over the generations as 66B keep getting slower/less damage/less advantage on hit. His throw/mid game is supposed to be strong to make up for weak punishing game, but of course I agree that Namco made that weaker as well lol.

4. Bigger/fixed hit boxes on 66K, 4B, 6B, 22B, 44B
Reason: if they step and you whiff fine, you guessed wrong, but when someone is standing still and those moves whiff it's not on, they need a 20% (BR) - 40% (22B 44B) wider hit boxes
YES! Also auto-whiffing seems to happen to BB6 as well.

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I already agree on faster RE and also improve either 6A+B or 3A.

I am looking at your comments on increasing damage, and now that I think about it, for a character with such terrible speed/frames on all his mids and claims "power is everything", PT is the only mid move that does the intended damage. Every other mid move has gotten nerfed somehow.

I wouldn't say he's the worst character in the game though. I think he's better than Talim, Tira and Taki (not sure if the new EXC tech changes her standing)
 

CaliJared

[09] Warrior
I don't think Talim is as bad as people say, and any character that can cancel out of RE has tons of options for defense. Tira is good except for her random stance switches, but she has really good tools, including a safe 3B that leads to really good damage. Maybe Taki is on the level of Astaroth, since a lot of her tools can be shut down consistently at higher levels of play, much like the big man.

I think Asta's mids are so bad in this game, at doesn't even matter if you guess wrong on a couple of ducks, the moment the opponent ducks a throw they make up that damage and then some.

Just give him a good mid and I'd be happy. It's crazy how every aspect of his game can be done better by another member of the cast. He doesn't stand out in any area, even throws.
 

ShinJin

[09] Warrior
yeah his overall punishment is very bad, but, i feel him having 1 decent long range punisher (66B) and 1 short range punisher (4AA) would make up for not having a launch at all.

and 1AA and 1AB did used to be a mix up, maybe in sc3, but definitely in sc2.
 

damn-I-Suck

[12] Conqueror
The cpu seems to be very good with astaroth. I'm not drawing any conclusions from that but I thought I should mention that. I find myself getting mixed up between throws and mids quite often. Maybe my reactions are shit now that im 35, who knows. I exclusively use Siegfried right now, and I will definitely agree with the idea that he has way more useful tools, is faster overall with just as much range, has more overall damage with combos, his wall game is insane as demonstrated by linkorz and others, his ring out game is much better, AANND he has tons of TC moves to duck under his scary grabs. What does astaroth have over Sieg? Throws...... and what else?

I live in a rural area where internet is good enough for streaming movies and such but not good enough for fighting games. Yes I am hardlined into the grid and yes my ps4 is hardlined into the router. So it's either play sc4 level of online lag or play no lag cpu legendary. I am trying to find people in my area who play but hardly anyone out here likes fighting games let alone Soul Calibur. I'm hoping that with the inclusion of the PC platform this time around it might be easier to find players.

But yeah, I agree with pretty much all of you on most of those points. He's weak. He was actually one of my side characters in 3, 4, and 5, and in 5 he was my strongest side character, my #2. In 5 his BA 22B had awesome tracking and led to stupid damage if I remember right, haven't played that game in years. Does his SC 22B have good tracking? if not then that would be a good buff imo.

I dropped this character in 6.
 

damn-I-Suck

[12] Conqueror
yeah his overall punishment is very bad, but, i feel him having 1 decent long range punisher (66B) and 1 short range punisher (4AA) would make up for not having a launch at all.

and 1AA and 1AB did used to be a mix up, maybe in sc3, but definitely in sc2.
I seem to remember 1aa/1ab was always super slow, to the point that it's not really a mix up, since it was react-able. It's been many years so my memory might be off.
 

ShinJin

[09] Warrior
yeah it was reactable, but it was another move you could throw out when they were on the floor, sometimes you need moves to mix people up to keep them on their toes. it's actually worthless in it's current state because you can step the B every time and never get hit by the A
 

damn-I-Suck

[12] Conqueror
It confuses me why Astaroth seems to have been nerfed from sc5, while everyone else got buffs. It's not like SCV astaroth was top tier anyway. Why namco, why?
 

Foxbot

[09] Warrior
I don't think Talim is as bad as people say, and any character that can cancel out of RE has tons of options for defense. Tira is good except for her random stance switches, but she has really good tools, including a safe 3B that leads to really good damage. Maybe Taki is on the level of Astaroth, since a lot of her tools can be shut down consistently at higher levels of play, much like the big man.

I think Asta's mids are so bad in this game, at doesn't even matter if you guess wrong on a couple of ducks, the moment the opponent ducks a throw they make up that damage and then some.

Just give him a good mid and I'd be happy. It's crazy how every aspect of his game can be done better by another member of the cast. He doesn't stand out in any area, even throws.
Yes on better mids.

Although I still think his throw game is really good, and that's why people want to duck. 214A+G still ROs fairly well, just no more half life wall combos; both command throws will catch TJ opponents; both command throws give good wake-up options, including 1[ B ]

His armor throws also acts like meterless BE 66K with less reward but also less risk.