Competitive Gaming vs. Casual "Fun" Gaming

Nuez

Nuez

[09] Warrior
After swinging the early tier thread off-topic for a few posts I figured I'd just start this thread.

Yes, it's hard to believe but some people still argue that competing to win is not necessarily more fun than casual gaming. That "playing to win at all costs" can actually put a hamper on fun or may not be as enjoyable an experience as competitive play. Books have even been written on this issue (if you haven't checked it out already, read David Sirlin's collection of articles called "Playing to Win" on sirlin.net) and everyone has their own opinion on it.

I believe with all my heart that learning the ins and outs of a game and playing to adapt, outsmart, and out-strategize your opponent has the potential to be the most fun you can have in a competitive game. This goes for chess, fighting games, shooters, or pretty much anything else that pits two or more players against each other on (hopefully balanced) semi-equal footing.

Yup, even Street Fighter with its tick-throws was more fun playing it competitively. After a while you learn how to defend against a tick throw by jumping or jabbing if frames permit. That's part of the "fun" experience for me - learning to adapt and improving my game.

Nothing to me is more satisfying than winning a good match and knowing you earned that win with everything you had. Well, sex comes close.

Discuss!
 
I was always under the impression that Competitive Gaming = Fun Gaming. Hence why playing against others more than often proves to be more fun than playing solo.
 
The latest arguement I heard today was Special Vs or Standard Vs in SC4.

Still waiting to see if that guy in particular will post here.

Personally Special Vs seems like a nice little spin on the whole thing but I like to play competitively as the game was originally intended. Especially since you can't really crate your CaS characters around with you to tourney's and stuff.

I see the allure to that game mode but honestly the standard game is where it's really at.

I think all of 2 people will actually hold the opposite view on this site so I think this thread will probably die early but I hope not. I like debates =)
 
I'm not sure honestly. I imagine throws would be broken since they just HAPPEN. Random move spam ought to work pretty well as well.

Yeah. Playing Special VS competitively is a stupid idea.
 
The reason is this:

People don't like to lose. They like even less to lose over and over. When you play "win at all costs", you are effectively trying to break your opponent's spirit. Now, as little as I like losing all the time, I also don't like winning all the time. If my opponent isn't of a similar skill level as I, then playing to win isn't enjoyable for anyone.

The only time that competitive play IS fun is when you and your opponent can actually compete. If there is a skill gap, then neither person is going to have fun (unless you're one of those dicks who like beating up on people less skilled than you).

And unfortunately, the times when that actually happens is extremely rare.
 
I dont really know where i stand honestly, I cant really say i "play to win".

I'm not someone who is willing to fly all over the palce to go to a tournament, As much as i'd like to i just cant convice myself its logical. So its impossible for me to ever become a "competitive" player as much as i want to be im not willing to make the financial commitment to do so.

Im going by the fact that being a competitive player = tournaments.

Otherwise though i totaly enjoy playing, I love those intense matches that occur when you wind up playing someone that is really good. I also really enjoy watching some people play some of the players out there, their style could be conciderd an art form they are just so amazing to watch. .. I've lost many matches from just being in "awe" of my opponents playstyle and skill..


. . .BUT i still hate fighitng games.
 
If you hate fighting games why are you playing SC at all? Don't take that the wrong way, I look at hate very very stringently because it's a strong word that people throw around too carelessly IMO. Either way I think we're talking about what your mindset is when you step into a round against another person, not necessarily flying yourself to get into a tourney. I do think we are all correct in assuming a competitive player is one that goes to tourneys.

Anyway, I always start off playing to win, to beat the other person into submission. The problem is that no one I usually play against wants to learn, so in the end it becomes a regular beatdown. Ravariel is partially right in my opinion, with the caveat being competitive play is MOST fun (not only) when the two people are relatively equal in skill. However, it is just as fun to play competitively and lose 80 times in a row if you are a person who is learning. The first time I picked up KOF my friend was already (and still is) leagues ahead of me, with his execution and stuff. We played for almost 5 hours straight though, and I lost pretty much every time, but each time I was learning, getting used to the game. It culminated in us meeting up next time and now I can give him a run for his money, even if I play it SF style with limited combos and focusing on my fireball traps and stuff.

One of the things that comes up in these discussions that makes me scratch my head is the "work" counterargument. Some people say that competing is overrated because then you're not playing, you're working. IMO if you have that kind of philosophy you're just a lazy ass who isn't willing to learn something to be better at what you're doing. I thrive off of pushing myself in games and success is the most fun I can get in any.
 
Competive play is the fun. Otherwise instead of weapons we might as well give the characters flowers and instead of attacks you do party tricks. Did a game like that ever come into existence? If it would, would it be a hit? Well... Maybe on the Wii...

People who say competitive players aren't enjoying themselves probably speak out of envy. It's like saying money can't buy you happiness or one night stands aren't really their thing. Only the people who don't have any say such things.
 
Syrpiektre said:
If you hate fighting games why are you playing SC at all? Don't take that the wrong way, I look at hate very very stringently because it's a strong word that people throw around too carelessly IMO. Either way I think we're talking about what your mindset is when you step into a round against another person, not necessarily flying yourself to get into a tourney. I do think we are all correct in assuming a competitive player is one that goes to tourneys.
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Your right Hate is probably too strong. I love SC and Melty Blood those are really the only fighitng games i play and think that i'd actually enjoy playing them at a higher level.

I wasnt aware that you could think of something other than wining in a match. Why even bother playing if you dont plan on wining what could you do besides beating the opponent?
 
The notion that playing to win is not fun is just the casual gamer's take. They just don't understand that there is different fun that their fun. I have had this casual "fun" and it gets it's laughs, but I've never had as much fun as being in a tournament doing what I need to do. Competitive gaming has allowed me to meet some gaming legends and that's something I'll never forget.

I do believe playing to win can be a bad thing at times. Playing to win all the doesn't give you permission to try new things. Just trying different things in casuals regardless of win or loss can be invaluable when that win does count. Playing to win and playing to learn can definitely be at odds with each other.
 
It's like this in any possibly competitive game really. Different people have different amounts of competitive drive and different motivations for playing the game.

It's like my current group of friends whom I play DotA with from time to time. There are two of us who love competition, and nothing to us is really "cheap", just either well-played or poorly read by one side. Then, there's a few of my friends whom we don't do in-house DotA games with anymore due to their "lack" of competitive spirit. They get angry when we pull 3 or 4 on 1 ganks (hey, it's DotA, this is the norm!), or when we build effective item builds (sheepsticks/bashers/etc are "cheap" to them). Apparantly their perception of the game is that everyone should stay in their own lanes and farm until some arbitrary time and then we should have an "arranged" fight of some sort.

Imaginary rules, misguided and biased perceptions of the game - really, that's all it is.

Incidently, the same few people refuse to play SC4 with us too. Hmm... I guess mixups and wakeups are "cheap" too, eh?
 
Competitive Gaming vs. Casual Gaming in a 2p fighting game is like comparing apples vs oranges. Competitive and casual is just generic skill level labels. The 'fun' comes in having a close match with someone of close to equal skill.

The only way to not 'play to win' would be a double-Yoshimitsu-who-can-kill-themselves-faster-match...cept ur still trying to win that loss...or something like that
 
Ravariel said:
The reason is this:

People don't like to lose. They like even less to lose over and over. When you play "win at all costs", you are effectively trying to break your opponent's spirit. Now, as little as I like losing all the time, I also don't like winning all the time. If my opponent isn't of a similar skill level as I, then playing to win isn't enjoyable for anyone.

The only time that competitive play IS fun is when you and your opponent can actually compete. If there is a skill gap, then neither person is going to have fun (unless you're one of those dicks who like beating up on people less skilled than you).

And unfortunately, the times when that actually happens is extremely rare.
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i think you've said it perfectly here.

competitive play is where its at for me, improving, learning and winning is all part of the fun. beating someone who doesnt stand a chance though is unfulfilling and generally a waste of time... which is why i am thankful for online play which opens up a much bigger pool of players to seek out competition. i know online in sc isnt perfect but its still viable and is very well done in other genres too.

i find myself dumbing down a lot when i play with my rl friends but then i dont care about winning then its more about just chilling out.
 
It all comes down to personal preference.

The problem is when people try to push their personal preferences onto each other.
IMO, Online should be ignored simply because there is no way to encourage civil behavior, and there will always be the occasional troll who's e-pen will ruin whatever good spirit you have going for a competitive game.

If you want competition, you need like-minded people to play with.
If you like casual, you need like-minded people, as well as humble competitors who don't rack up their e-pen on you simply because you do not care enough to learn how to stop them.
 
competitive gaming for me has been a place full of egos and drama.

i eventually found some cool cats that played serious and were nice guys, but in general casual gaming with friends is far better for your psyche. ignorance is bliss. never knowing that kb2 exists in sc2 might be better than spending hours in training mode trying cervy bt jf's.

i know my friends aren't big fans of how much better i got in fighting games than they did.
 
Thanks Nuez for the topic, and for opening the discussion.

Ravariel nailed it above (and several others have chimed in with great complementary points). "At all costs" gaming is basically not just about winning, it's usually about winning in a demoralizing way. Seeing an opponent's disadvantage and then doing nothing but setting up situations where you can ruthlessly abuse that disadvantage. An example would be one of Marduk's throw/juggle combos in T5DR which starts with a low stunning kick (techable stun). If I fought a player who obviously didn't know the tech for that stun, and (once I figured this out) immediately started doing basically nothing but setting up that combo and blasting the enemy with max damage, I would basically be bullying them and probably making them not much want to play the game anymore, at least not with strangers. This does nothing to grow the fanbase or help other players get as good as you, the good players, currently are. So for me there should be a space where you can have less brutal, more forgiving competition. Fun is definitely about fighting and winning, but when it's winning against someone who might as well have one hand tied behind their back in terms of how well they can match you, that's not really "winning" IMO. Winning is fighting a skilled opponent who can match you trick for trick and has your approximate same level of knowledge. Not brutalizing someone who can't fight at your level, or being brutalized in that fashion.

It's sort of like sparring in a martial arts class. High-ranked belts do spar with lower-ranked belts, but there's respect there for the newcomer's lack of ability and training. The higher-ranked belt will definitely be pushing the lower-ranker to work harder and get outside their comfort zone, but they will not do it in a crushing, punishing way. Or if they do, they sure to hell don't deserve that rank.

Now ShenOu makes a really good point above too (even if I don't agree with his conclusion). He states that you're always going to run into jerks who will do anything and everything they can to make the game as unfun as possible for people, or to at least ensure they are the only ones enjoying themselves. My answer to this isn't to ignore online play entirely, just to make sure you choose your sparring partners carefully. For years I posted on Armored Core forums about a game that couldn't even be played online - we literally waited months or even years to meet each other at once-yearly tournaments, taped our shit, and posted it on the net afterward. It was a very healthy, very respectful community for a long while; newcomers were always treated with respect, and the wealth of knowledge held by people who had been playing since the very first edition was always shared without hesitation (as well as strategy and tactics tips). When, much later, AC actually went online, you never had a bad match if you were playing with any one of those fans. There was too much mutual respect within the community. That kind of gaming community is what makes our hobby fun, and I really hope 8WR will continue to grow in that direction.

Last, the question of Special VS. This is a tough one. On one hand, we have the obvious fact that Namco spent probably hundreds of hours streamlining and fine-tuning the deep customization system from SC3 and polishing it into the SC4 version, no doubt including an honest attempt to balance the skills and stats. On the other hand, there's the equally obvious fact that some powers/abilities have the potential to be, if not thoroughly broken, at least hideously nasty to fight online. Invisibility is one. Honestly, another is just very high stats. A friend of mine has a Sophitia CAS with 140% ATK, 144% DEF, and 155% HP. She also gets Start Dash A. That character is just insanely hard to fight - she's got all the native speed, reach and switchups of Sophy with excellent defense even without a boost, but a substantial boost to both defense and attack in about the first 20 seconds of the fight (that's a LONG time). If I do beat that CAS with my Nightmare CAS, it always feels like a skin-of-the-teeth win. (Maybe the Sophy/NM match is just hard for NM? Don't know.) It can be a little frustrating, honestly.

So SP VS, or no SP VS? I have to vote for it, among people who want to get the whole game experience. However, I'd be the quickest to point out that it totally changes the game, and the addition of Invisibility, Charge Cancelling (create your own combos - insane with some fighters), and several of the other powers changes game balance drastically. Also, I wonder how careful the balance team really was in some cases (for instance, it might just be my opinion, but I swear chicks get better swag than dudes for both stats and skill points). Still, I have tons of fun trying to find new combinations of skills and stats that complement my favorite characters' innate strengths. And this is just messing around with 2 or 3 fighters. Over time, as I try more, I'll get even more out of it.

Tournaments with SP VS will never be seen at big events like EVO though - not as main events. That's sad in a way, but at the same time it sort of keeps the play space in a natively simpler, less intense place - since you know you'll be fighting a friend, not a merciless tournament competitor.

All the above JM2c - common disclaimer I know, but it is. :-)
 
Well, competitive gaming and fun gaming can go hand in hand. They both can be considered equaly entertaining. But, there are those players that take competitive gaming to a whole new height. That's when it loses it's fun factor and starts getting (not boring) to be a PAIN IN THE ASS to have fun or compete with those individuals.


Example: Just a week ago I was having a great time showing off my dangeroulsy abled fighters in online matches. I wasn't winning all of the duels, in fact it was more like 60% of the time, but the fun factor was definitely high. We all enjoyed showing our moves and participating to knocking the lead player from his throne (I can confirm this because we all had headsets). We were strategizing and switching up players even if it meant a disadvantage to yourself. We wanted to have fun at a reasonable competitive level, not ridicule the opponents by stomping thier head into the ground when the match has obviously been called (as some would do). We laughed, we froliced, we did the whole shibang. Until. . . .some airhead decided to join our matches. We welcomed him, we even congratulated him on his several wins but NEVER dissed him to make a point. Well, it turned out that this particular player wasn't the "playful" type. He not only used the same character all the time but he constantly pummelled his victim mercilessly after he's won. Even after the fight he would brag, heckle and rant about how hopeless we were and how disgracefully inferior we are to him. Truth was, anyone of us could take him down with our best fighter, and so we did. We each picked our most prefered character and taught him a lesson by making him eating the pavement. Me, personally, was not looking forward to turning the competitive level to such a degree. I find it to be less enjoyable to completely iradicate an opponent and barely give him an oppurtunity to defend himself. But this one needed a punishing.

I'm not saying that competing is all together stressful and annoying to other players. It's definitely fun at some levels. But when you decided to be unfriendly with it, it tends to be, well, unfriendly and impossible to to have fun.
 
Casuals are always more fun than Tourny matches, less you win the tournament.

When you go to a tournament and get owned out of the standings, after all is said and done, it's the casuals where everyone has fun...Money matches, mirror matches, first to 5/10 and the like.

Competitive gaming is more about your desire to be on top. Your ego. Casual gaming is simply having fun, that's really the purpose. Casuals win the fun factor.
 
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