Game breaking : Ivy nearly duplicate animation 2B+K and 2A+G but require different guard.

Marginal said:
This is SCIV Hilde level stuff if left untouched.
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This is hyperbole, right? Hilde had TOD combos on most stages, fast plus on block mid horizontals with autoGI properties that lead into said TOD combo, plus on block or safe long range mid launchers that lead to TOD combo that tracked to one side, pretty good damage overall, the best step in the game, and probably a few other things I'm forgetting. Ivy looks very strong (maybe even too strong, though I don't think a few days with the game is enough to determine that especially given how long it took for Hilde to be deemed OP and banned from tournaments) but what Hilde had was almost as blatantly broken as infinite combos/blockstrings, I think the balance of Ivy's tools are a bit less transparent.

I'm just hoping the nerf bat that seems to be coming her way doesn't hit her too hard (like further differentiating the animations of 2/3B+K and 2/3A+G which would defeat the purpose of the low attack throw or making the second hit of 66[A] a high).
 
Hilde also lost tournaments and got out placed by Ivy and Cassandra at EVO. Hilde polarized the cast, but that didn't mean every character became unviable, just most of them became not worth playing. Does this mean Hilde didn't need nerfs? There's lots of rhetoric to work around the idea of a character being justifiable or not in a fighting game. Just present the facts and the way it interacts with most of the cast and you'll have your answers on if a character is too good or not.

With that being said, Ivy right now forces a meta where the character has to move forward constantly so that the game can finally have two players. Only exception would be projectile characters when/if they get added. This limits the roster in a bad way since a lot of characters rely on 3D neutral where sidestep is an option at mid/far ranges. Almost all of the characters don't just stay in your face and vortex in SC6, unlike NRS games. Like Signia said in his post, she isn't helpless at range 0 (actually quite good), and her meter utility makes it not a sustainable range if you are winning at it. This is a pretty big design flaw for anyone that plays a character with a preferred mid/far range that isn't Ivy OR if they play a character with a preferred close range that has no ability to create vortex situations constantly.

EDIT: Bonus trivia! Which characters in SC6 have a positive on hit low that is damaging? These will be the characters that will be competitive with SC6 Ivy
 
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Party Wolf said:
Hilde also lost tournaments and got out placed by Ivy and Cassandra at EVO. Hilde polarized the cast, but that didn't mean every character became unviable, just most of them became not worth playing. Does this mean Hilde didn't need nerfs? There's lots of rhetoric to work around the idea of a character being justifiable or not in a fighting game. Just present the facts and the way it interacts with most of the cast and you'll have your answers on if a character is too good or not.

With that being said, Ivy right now forces a meta where the character has to move forward constantly so that the game can finally have two players. Only exception would be projectile characters when/if they get added. This limits the roster in a bad way since a lot of characters rely on 3D neutral where sidestep is an option at mid/far ranges. Almost all of the characters don't just stay in your face and vortex in SC6, unlike NRS games. Like Signia said in his post, she isn't helpless at range 0 (actually quite good), and her meter utility makes it not a sustainable range if you are winning at it. This is a pretty big design flaw for anyone that plays a character with a preferred mid/far range that isn't Ivy OR if they play a character with a preferred close range that has no ability to create vortex situations constantly.

EDIT: Bonus trivia! Which characters in SC6 have a positive on hit low that is damaging? These will be the characters that will be competitive with SC6 Ivy
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Ya, I think Hilde is a good example of how a character can be broken but not necessarily OP. On the topic of Ivy forcing characters to move forward constantly, that's just the zoning archetype's M.O, I agree SC makes it ridiculous though by giving her a zero risk get-off-me move. I also agree that if she is going to be a traditional zoner (something I'm starting to doubt can even be implemented properly in a 3D FG) her close range tools shouldn't be on par with the rest of the cast. They took a pretty odd approach to zoning with her though by giving her a mid/low ranged 50/50. The mixup for zoners is usually between making the opponent guess whether to continue blocking to avoid being tagged by a quick ranged move or to move in (or throw out your own ranged move) to prevent them from using a slow plus on block zoning tool. I think soul charge's design is problematic in general but specifically in regards to keep out characters where the pushback is exceptionally advantageous when they use their SC but leaves opponent basically unable to use their own since it will put them at a disadvantageous range.

Do you think enough knowledge of matchups and the game's meta has been accumulated to conclude that Ivy is too strong or too polarizing, it seems the latter is almost inherently true for zoners? I think her place on a tier list or matchup chart might be a bit harder to pinpoint given she brings quite a few unprecedented tools to the table. I'm willing to concede that from what we know it wouldn't be shocking if she does turn out to be too good but I saw a lot of whiffed SS's, 66[A]'s, 2/3B+K's, and 2/3A+G's go without punishment (when the opponent was within range to do so) from what looked like simply a lack of familiarity against the moves. There were quite a few LH 66[A]'s landing too which doesn't seem like something that will happen all that often once people get used to blocking after seeing the first part whiff. I guess I've just always wanted zoning in a 3d fighter done properly and she looks promising but at the very least, the damage she get's off both options of the 2/3B+K/A+G mixup is absurd when compared to everyone else's 50/50's.
 
Party Wolf said:
Just move forward 4Head
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Just move forward and get hit again by another move ? Don't you think Ivy just has 2A+G or 2B+K =)))))

Fix the animation, done. Now side step already get -20 so even different animation does change how good 2A+G is ?

One question, how the hell we can do when running from afar to get close to her but not enough time or after she activates Soul Charge, and in the range of 2A+G or 2B+K ?

What are you doing when she thrust the sword to the ground ? Standing Block or Sitting Block ? In the past version there are some moves we can't block but we can side step. Now we don't have that option.

This is not 2D game where vortex or any 50/50 can be beat by an uppercut.
 
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babalook said:
This is hyperbole, right? Hilde had TOD combos on most stages, fast plus on block mid horizontals with autoGI properties that lead into said TOD combo, plus on block or safe long range mid launchers that lead to TOD combo that tracked to one side, pretty good damage overall, the best step in the game, and probably a few other things I'm forgetting. Ivy looks very strong (maybe even too strong, though I don't think a few days with the game is enough to determine that especially given how long it took for Hilde to be deemed OP and banned from tournaments) but what Hilde had was almost as blatantly broken as infinite combos/blockstrings, I think the balance of Ivy's tools are a bit less transparent.

I'm just hoping the nerf bat that seems to be coming her way doesn't hit her too hard (like further differentiating the animations of 2/3B+K and 2/3A+G which would defeat the purpose of the low attack throw or making the second hit of 66[A] a high).
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Hmm. Ivy can RO you from full screen with a low throw. She's also not fully baked yet in terms of damage output etc. I don't think counter play will reveal she's opened up. I think Ivy will likely just get stronger once people better know what they're doing with her.
 
Yeah, fighters in the past generation have become a lot crazier than this. I mean if THIS is the straw that breaks the camels back, I'm concerned at how the community is going to force Namco's hand when it comes to tier placements in this game. There are much crazier things going on in other games.

WITH THAT SAID...

I wouldnt be opposed to spike only doing crumple stun on standing characters that way if they fall for the spike trying to block the low throw its not combo-able, you cant take away the stun all together otherwise she has no reliable combo into fishhook > ivy lick. So theres a real conundrum here, because that move is a core aspect of Ivy's entire gameplan and her strongest range which is mid. She has combos built around eating a spike.

AT THE SAME TIME

I think the game still needs time to flesh out. Calling this Hilde 2.0 is like crying wolf imo.

Maybe reduce the pushback? Really I dont see whats so criminal about this move so early.
 
I understand why some of you want to wait to call something broken or OP or whatever, because the game isn't out yet. Totally understandable.

However...

A mix-up from range with the same animation that leads to high damage or RO. That by itself is a little bit BS, then you add her ridiculous long range horizontal mid, that actually hurts quite a bit, with decent pushback to yet again put you in IVY's ideal range.

The fact that you are basically limited to rushdown style against her. If she can limit your options to THAT extent, yeah you get the idea.

Someone else mentioned that SC's pushback is more advantageous for long range characters than short ones.

There is many more BS moves she has that I wont even mention. When you start thinking about all of these things put together, the evidence is stacking up that she is indeed too strong.

And since were talking about beta SC6 it shouldn't be a surprise that some of the characters are too strong. LIke Sophie getting nerfed already. Ivy will get hit pretty soon guaranteed.

I'm just a nobody not making any definitive claims about anything. This is just my opinion of IVY.
 
Artilust said:
I wouldnt be opposed to spike only doing crumple stun on standing characters that way if they fall for the spike trying to block the low throw its not combo-able, you cant take away the stun all together otherwise she has no reliable combo into fishhook > ivy lick. So theres a real conundrum here, because that move is a core aspect of Ivy's entire gameplan and her strongest range which is mid. She has combos built around eating a spike.
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I really hope they don't remove the lethal hit, just lower the damage. Ivy probably has a few different options after the LH crumble stun as far as combos go, and I hate when nerfs remove depth from a character/game. If lowering the damage output of something can fix a problem, that's the route that should be taken.

Marginal said:
Hmm. Ivy can RO you from full screen with a low throw. She's also not fully baked yet in terms of damage output etc. I don't think counter play will reveal she's opened up. I think Ivy will likely just get stronger once people better know what they're doing with her.
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I don't think their RO games are comparable, all of Hilde's best moves lead to a long-range ring out combo. I will agree that given how in past games she's had ways to force the opponent to block 2/3B+K, it's likely that she can in SCVI as well and might be even stronger than she already appears to be. But the game isn't even out yet, there are plenty of unknown unknowns that could pop up that significantly reduce or enhance her game plan's efficacy. I don't think I've ever played a FG where all of the most instrumental aspects of the game's meta were discovered during the beta stage.
 
babalook said:
I don't think their RO games are comparable, all of Hilde's best moves lead to a long-range ring out combo. I will agree that given how in past games she's had ways to force the opponent to block 2/3B+K, it's likely that she can in SCVI as well and might be even stronger than she already appears to be. But the game isn't even out yet, there are plenty of unknown unknowns that could pop up that significantly reduce or enhance her game plan's efficacy. I don't think I've ever played a FG where all of the most instrumental aspects of the game's meta were discovered during the beta stage.
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Well, just bear in mind people figured that out about Hilde very quickly. Counter play never amounted to much etc. She dictated every game she was in to the detriment of the game.

Ivy's tools as they are don't leave much wiggle room in that respect, and I don't think they'd have to change a ton to make her good but not nuts. .
 
I wonder why the topic went too far
The topic creator only want Namco to change animation of Ivy 2A+G because it's similar to 2B+K. That's all.
 
tetsu said:
I wonder why the topic went too far
The topic creator only want Namco to change animation of Ivy 2A+G because it's similar to 2B+K. That's all.
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I think everyone is on pins and needles about this game and really passionate since I think considering the sales of V and time lapse between V and VI we all understand how important it is for this game to be good.

I was originally worried this was an overreaction, but if Ivy defines the meta in an oppressive way and altering this mix up would drastically help that it should be done.
 
Artilust said:
2A+G being an attack throw so both options can be GI'ed is also another thought.
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Don't you know that Ivy can cancel 2A+G as well. She baits you GI and punish, very simple.

She cancels the move, you're GI, you eat her combo. You don't GI and guard, fine. You still can't touch her, you stand like a sitting duck to see what does she up to again. That's all you can do.
 
Regardless of animation, it looks like the hit box of the throw is too wide, laterally.

So if stepping was a reliable counter to it, there wouldn’t be as much of an uproar, but currently the throw looks like it’s catching people as they’re trying to sidestep which is not good. Not good at all.
 
Off-topic, but the same thing happens with Yoshimitsu's CE.

They seem to have gone overboard with the tracking, to make up for how fast movement is.
 
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