~I do not Desire...A False Salvation!~ Siegfried Lag Tactics

Do you believe we're all lag trash anyways?

  • Yes, totally.

    Votes: 8 42.1%
  • No, absolutely not.

    Votes: 4 21.1%
  • Meh, maybe a little...

    Votes: 7 36.8%

  • Total voters
    19

Slayer_X64

Siegfried SA Moderator
Hello, welcome to the Siegfried Lag Tactic thread for those of us who play online. Here are some general guidlines you can use to avoid abusing lag vs online players. Mind you, you will still see these offline, and they will still work offline, even if only occasionally. Remember that lag affects EVERYTHING online, and that these are just specific things that are siegfried related. It doesn't mean that through avoiding these it will be like playing offline. In fact it means the opposite. Online is online, offline is offline. Being good online doesnt necessarily mean you're bad offline, but it also doesnt necessarily mean you're good either; there are just to many variable's to consider, things that a person has trouble understanding unless they have played offline. Therefore follow these guidlines at your own discretion, and take things said here with a grain of salt.

I color coded things to make it simple.

GREEN = not severely effected by online (everything is effected by online)
ORANGE = works better than intended online than offline
RED = works far better than intended online than offline, to the extreme

Lag Tactics:
  • 2A+B (i28)
    • this move isnt particularily all that special to begin with. its an ok whiff punisher at long range, but it does give a free hit against a guarding opponent online, despite being reactable.
  • SBH A+B (i36)
    • create's an ugly, laggy 50/50 between SBH B ant itself for high damage options between a launcher and oki game that would not otherwise be practically present offline.
  • 1AA (i27)
    • while this is very effective against catching rolling, it is a free hit against those that choose to instant stand online. however the move doesnt KND, its disadvantageous on hit, and it doesnt NC, so use at the discretion of your opponent.
  • a+ka:2AA (i32)
    • gives a free hit, and tons of advantage online.
Lag Boosted/Borderline Tactics:
  • WR [A] ~ SSH Mix ups
    • they work alright if WR A is connected on hit, but on block most launchers will beat out any attack from this transition. however these launchers can be evaded with a SCH transition.
  • SRSH mixups
    • from neutral, these mixups can be stepped and interrupted.
    • on block, all moves except SRSH A+B are extremely punishable offline. These moves have a very small amount of block stun however, making them unreactable to punish online.
    • SRSH A+B, instead of being a forced block for sleepers, becomes a 50/50 mixup with SRSH K.
    • there are uninterruptable, unstepable setups for SRSH B_K, which can still be used. in my personal offline experience, SRSH B_K is unreactable. however, like everything this may vary from person to person.
  • SCH transitions
    • from most basic transitions(excluding WR B) this can expect to be punished. some individuals have more problem with this than others, especially online(i just K punish or try to step it and whiff punish, although this is much softer punishment than you could possibly face offline.)
    • the entire stance from all transitions on GRD can be step G'd. however online it is nearly impossible to step, particularly with the problem that K will catch step online. another issue is SCH A catching step 100% even to the weak side. however SCH B does re-track an opponents step, regardless for forced block.
    • the use of SCH K, SCH KK and SCH kB is much much safer online than it is offline(this stance happens to be a bad habit of mine for abusing as well, even though i know its weaknesses). this can be interrupted when used in succession, step G'd, TC'd, and punished. SCH K SCH K is a particularly bad string that is an example of this.
  • SSH mixups
    • depending on ping, SSH B can form a 50/50 mixup with SSH A.
    • SSH A isnt 100% reactable, but its close enough to borderline that i honestly wouldnt recommend abusing it.
  • SBH moves
    • SBH K is safer online, however most opponents won't have an issue with launcher punishing this regardless.
  • Online Safety:
    • 3A ~ this move is -14(-15 at point blank range), but is rarely punished online.
    • B2A ~ this move is still punishable online, and the low is still reactable, but this string can also be interrupted by i17 or faster moves(mind you B2A4 may step linear i17 moves)
Tactics that are not noticeably effected by lag:
  • a+kA2AA
    • most players have no issue reacting to this string in standard ping, but it is quite difficult to deal with in laggy ping.
  • SSH A+B
    • a simple retreating low from stance. very few characters can actually punish this as well.
  • 2K string
    • it works ok as a substitute for 1A if you're cautious about using lag online. its fairly unsafe, and can be blocked and punished mid string. but it makes for ok oki and combo finishers.
  • 1K
    • your standard every day low kick. nothing special here.
  • 2A
    • a basic low poke that trades the offensive to the opponent in return for some small damage. good round finisher, good agitator.
  • SRSH A+B(far - tip range)
    • why does the opponent have to block low at this range at all? just step, GI, block, whatever.
Feel free to suggest and comment on other moves, or even on the current ones listed.
 

Slayer_X64

Siegfried SA Moderator
well it can be used to kill frontstep at tip range, and can be fairly effective at doing so(not sure, but i think it can catch box step too depending on who ur up against and their character's step capabilities), but thats assuming you're opponent is trying to frontstep, which is pretty thin ice for online especially since there's already so much anticipation going on. i mainly listed it as a lag tact because from personal experience it's fairly easy to react to 2A+B offline. course i eat it sometimes when i front step. however moves like this do have certain situations where they are more effective ie tech traps, wake-up 50/50's, post gi, wakeup in general, but it would have to be proven that lag has little effect on the outcome of these situations.
 

Synraii

[14] Master
Why WS [A] hate? If you use it as an alternative to WS B to punish it can be useful for netting extra damage, albeit a risky option. Or do you mean on block?
 

Slayer_X64

Siegfried SA Moderator
i mean on block. even on block, the move can be treated online as if it had hit, and becomes nearly impossible to interrupt/punish a follow up. offline SSH's fastest option would come out as an i18 high...slow enough that say in all technicality on WR {A} grd vs another sieg, 4K would quite easily stuff all options except stance evasion because it would TC SSH K and beat out SSH A/A+B. 6B could even stuff the stance by trading with SSH A/A+B for superior damage. there are alot of characters much better equipped to handle this situation as well. sophie for example gets a possible TAS B TASB:4 on grd. mind you the move does have fear advantage, but that itself only goes so far.
 

ZOMBIEBEAR666

[09] Warrior
44A and 66B could be considered lag tactics as well due to thier animations and speed, and 66B being punishable... At least 44A is OK, well I like it... I don't think SRSH K is a lag tactic, its too fast, the only things giving it away is the transition and the TC...
 

Slayer_X64

Siegfried SA Moderator
44A and 66B could be considered lag tactics as well due to thier animations and speed, and 66B being punishable... At least 44A is OK, well I like it... I don't think SRSH K is a lag tactic, its too fast, the only things giving it away is the transition and the TC...
while its difficult to react to slower attacks online in general, i wouldnt consider 44A or 66B lag tactics. 44A is a slow high thats slow enough that it doesnt kill step G online, and 66B is either unpunishable due to range, or is easily punishable through use of long range attacks (eg. sieg wr A or something with similar range but better properties). it is still reactable, but like everything else online it is enhanced.

SRSH K isnt a lag tactic, but using SRSH K/SRSH A+B acts as a mixup online due to lag. thats why IMO the only legit uses of SRSH A+B online are when you're way out of K_B range, or perhaps in situations where A+B is a forced block.
 

Heaton

A Soul in the Purgatory
SRSH K isnt a lag tactic, but using SRSH K/SRSH A+B acts as a mixup online due to lag. thats why IMO the only legit uses of SRSH A+B online are when you're way out of K_B range, or perhaps in situations where A+B is a forced block.
I still get hatemail from people who assume I'm going to SRSH K them from SRSH A+B tip range. That, and I will sometimes try to duck while blocking SRSH A+B even though it goes against everything I know. Probably just online being online more than anything.
 

ZOMBIEBEAR666

[09] Warrior
Well SRSH {K} and SRSH A+B can be used as a wake-up option to force opponents into 50/50's at least...
Something a bit off topic, after SRSH A+B, 33B can combo!!!
I also remember 44A being a forced block on techers after something, I'll come back to this...
 

Slayer_X64

Siegfried SA Moderator
unfortunately the thing is while SRSH A+B is good, online instead of forcing people into 50/50's, it itself acts as a 50/50. if you want we can experiment with this a little more in casual matches; i know im about to ask heaton and synraii if they want in on some casual siggy action. but i think you'll find that the move functions in a very laggy manner outside of the conditions i stated above.
 

Slayer_X64

Siegfried SA Moderator
Updated. far more thought and detail was put into the list. still a work in progress, however.