Is it beneficial to use punishment 6A+B?

T

Takin

[08] Mercenary
I raise this question because I used to spam it a lot as punishment -16 till -18.
But I regret more and more about it as the rest part of the combo whiffs often and I am punished back.
For example, yesterday I played vs pyrrha. After blocking his 3B I used four different endings:
6A+B4 PO A:6
6A+B4 PO B
6A+B4 PO K
6A+B4 PO B+K
All of them whiffed his 88K !
The same thing is in other more common situations. I mean POA:6 whiffs sometimes or A6 comes out and whiffs. And it is punishable (-14).
I watched recent tournament “Youmacon Battle Opera” where there are many natsu players:
http://ru.twitch.tv/getsaltytv
I saw nobody using punishment 6A+B!

To sum up, three questions:
1) Is it beneficial to use 6A+B punishment? or risk of whiff makes it useless.
2) How to deal with pyrrha’s 3B?
3) If somebody answers that punishment 6A+B is good then why guys from this tourney didn’t use it, noobs?))
 
Takin said:
1) Is it beneficial to use 6A+B punishment? or risk of whiff makes it useless.
2) How to deal with pyrrha’s 3B?
3) If somebody answers that punishment 6A+B is good then why guys from this tourney didn’t use it, noobs?))
Click to expand...
1) It can be beneficial, the combination of speed and range allow it to punish attacks that are safe to anything else.
Maybe try 6A+B without 4 into PO, it does only 20 damage, but gives advantage (even though the pushback limits your follow-up options) and damage is damage right?
It can also be done easily from Full Crouch position, which allows 6A+B to punish lows and whiffed high attacks.

2) Consider the distance between you and pyrrha when you block her 3B.
When it was at tip range she can block even your 6A+B.
When you're closer than that 6A+B works.
When you're still closer 3B, 4B and 3KK also punish.
The best would be to keep close to her to improve your punishment options.
Another way that would destroy a predictable 3B is to JG it and punish it with 66B, independent of distance.
Or step it and whiff punish with 4A+B (Air Throw would probably whiff because of off axis, so do 4A+B~ A+B instead)

3) I can only speculate:
6A+B has it's obvious drawbacks, most notably the unreliable PO followup. (On certain characters PO A:6 and K always whiff)
And a mistake with this can get painful.
This might have turned the other players off.

Or they haven't practiced this particular punishment because it is just a little part of a huge game.
I haven't memorized all moves that are unsafe to 6A+B either.
It's a very specific punisher.
Maybe they have been practicing other punishers or whatever which might be more rewarding.
Or their playing focus is not even on punishing, especially when the opponent plays very safe.
 
Yes, but be careful with PO. lol
i'd say A:6 is a better punisher (in close range, it is punishable in partial hit)
 
A:6 is great!
But you can't really compare those two because they have different uses.
A:6= super fast close range
6A+B= fast mid- far range and from full crouch.

Both are a bit unreliable, i hate when A:6 hits at tip range, whiffing the second and third attack, leaving me unsafe.
Good that most people are too scared to attack after this.
 
6B can be used in every situation that you can use 6A+B. Lots of advantage, a little less damage, but gives you momentum.

I've been liking PO A:6 after 6A+B a lot less lately, unless it's on counterhit (from the second hit of 6A+B). The whiffing issues are annoying, and even though it gives knockdown, it doesn't give that much more damage than 6B.

I still love 6A+B since it gives a near uninteruptable PO B. If they try to interrupt with a slow move, they eat massive damage from PO B. Even if they block, you get frame advantage and guard gauge damage.

Obviously you can do other stuff after 6A+B since you'll be in PO stance.

In summary, 6A+B -> POA:6 is a fine punisher which gives knockdown, but there are other good options to consider when punishing -16~17 depending on what you want at that moment.
 
Slade said:
Is PO B steppable after 6A+B4 on hit?
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They'll have to react quickly, but PO B is steppable after 6A+B4 on hit. However, stepping leaves them vulnerable to PO A6 counterhit, which leads to full 3KKK combo.

The important thing is to mix it up.
 
Step into tc move like a good 3b will deal with po a:6. The key is to be careful what you do on hit with characters that have Jank hitboxes. (Raph, Algol, Liz, viola, ivy, sometimes Pyrrha)
 
Good thing to remember is 6A+B -> PO gives a good amount of frame advantage, so you can mix it up with other stuff and not just PO A:6. For example, if you're feeling daring against a step happy opponent, you can do dumb PORC stuff like PORC into A:6 to deal with step.
 
the only safe option after 6A+B PO are A and K (A:6 is the best option)
B can be stepped afaik
B+K is low and it can be used every now and then but if it gets blocked... it's -26 BUT your opponent won't have as much options since you'll be on the ground
A+B works nice for people who don't know natsu
 
tips that work for me ;D
6A+B~4 blocked PO K and pray for not being punished xD
6A+B~4 blocked PO~6,6,4 throw. Pray for not being punished =P
6A+B~4 blocked BE PO K back throw setup xD
6A+B~4 hit/counter PO B always use this, best mid of natsu
6A+B~4 hit/counter PO A:6 if they try to side step
PO B hit oki with bombs, throws, etc
PO B blocked 66B+G hard to escape mix with A+G
if you get tip range counter stun do PO B+K
if you train your opponent with with the above tactics you can use the rest of PO attacks like
PO HOVER mix BIG combos train that JF xD
if the opponent stay still PO Exorcism tcUB
last PO Silent Mist
have fun xD
if you like i can post my tips for 66B lol
 
was checking out all the "no sc5 in evo" conversations and noticed this thread. just a reminder that you can always skip past all the self-imposed mind games and use 6B in place of 6A+B... equal or better range than the first hit of 6A+B, decent damage and a load of + frames on hit.

[edit] k omegaxcn nailed it before me, haha. the basic mixup post 6A+B on hit is PO B or PO A6 (not the JF version... that does crap dmg on NH and PO B is already mostly uninterruptible). let's compare risk/reward:

PO B gets blocked: + frames and possibility of guard crush for CH iWS K combo dealing about 80+ dmg (let's assume you don't want to spend meter)
PO B lands on hit: combo into 1A for 70 dmg
PO A catches step: CH combo for 60+ dmg
PO A gets blocked: you eat an i14 punisher (typically stab for 50-60 dmg)
PO B gets stepped: you eat a big combo

the risk/reward is kinda even, until you factor in sidestep TC moves like pyrrha's 22K. i'm not sure if HOV B (into a 90+ dmg combo) or PO A+B+K into BT PO K (68 dmg); if it does then the risk/reward is still fine, but if it doesn't then you should just avoid doing PO mixups on this character.
 
TaXi said:
was checking out all the "no sc5 in evo" conversations and noticed this thread. just a reminder that you can always skip past all the self-imposed mind games and use 6B in place of 6A+B... equal or better range than the first hit of 6A+B, decent damage and a load of + frames on hit.
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I'm pretty sure 6A+B has better range than 6B.
It catches a 4B-ing Mitsu after Natsu 2A on hit while 6B doesn't.
TaXi said:
PO B gets blocked: + frames and possibility of guard crush for CH iWS K combo dealing about 80+ dmg (let's assume you don't want to spend meter)
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Is not 4A+B~ Air throw the better choice after Guard Crush? (Or PO B Guard Crush anyway?)
Same or more damage and easier. (Much more damage with Meter)
Although the psychological effect of eating a 9-11 hit combo should not be neglected.
And WS K is faster than 4A+B.
TaXi said:
PO B lands on hit: combo into 1A for 70 dmg
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WTF i was sure this doesn't combo but it's guaranteed! I thought 6K was the best after PO B *facepalm*
TaXi said:
PO A catches step: CH combo for 60+ dmg
PO A gets blocked: you eat an i14 punisher (typically stab for 50-60 dmg)
Click to expand...
You mean PO A6 right?
 
No flesh is right, po a6 Is the solo long swiping hit. Po a is the same animation as 2bA and 4a+ba. Which is not unsafe.
 
To add to the thread about 16 frame punishers, there is also Natsu's 3B to consider as an option. Fleshmaster mentioned this in one part of his reply, but in any case, I would consider 3B, A:6 to be the optimal 16 frame punish whenever possible.
 
I used 6A+B4 for punishment and to stop players from approaching head on. Just to let them know I have a "long range stop running towards me" move. Once they notice that then they eat 66AB.
 
ergh i am the worst... yes i meant to type PO A6, the non-JF version. sorry for the confusion!

fleshmasher: the 2nd hit of 6A+B has really long range, but the first hit of 6A+B has less range. in the example of catching mitsu's 4B, i think it's the 2nd hit of 6A+B that connects with mitsu.
 
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