Moving from SCIII Nightmare to SCV Nightmare - What to look for?

GroxGlitch

GroxGlitch

[08] Mercenary
The question's in the title:
I'm moving from being a massive SCIII veteran (vs Ai, at least) to the newer games, specifically SCV, and I'm interested in what's changed with Nightmare. I've played a little of V but not enough to really know the ins and outs of what's new.

What good moves did NM lose? What good moves did NM gain? Things to watch for? I had noticed that NM lost the 4B guard-break launcher he had in III, but that's all that really stood out.
 
Honestly, NM is extremely HARD to play. Most of the time, I feel as if I have to work harder than my opponents to win.
Most of his moves are punishable so you'll have to learn to limit yourself to only a few selected moves.
His CE is extremely risky and isn't worth it for the damage output, and his edge attacks aren't really that good.
NM may seem to have good wall combos, but they are extremely hard to setup against experienced players.
It's extremely frustrating to fight against a fast character who spams in front of your face.
 
LockDownZ said:
Honestly, NM is extremely HARD to play. Most of the time, I feel as if I have to work harder than my opponents to win.
Most of his moves are punishable so you'll have to learn to limit yourself to only a few selected moves.
His CE is extremely risky and isn't worth it for the damage output, and his edge attacks aren't really that good.
NM may seem to have good wall combos, but they are extremely hard to setup against experienced players.
It's extremely frustrating to fight against a fast character who spams in front of your face.
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Yeah, that was one of the things I recalled reading here - his poke game is utterly attrocious? As I recall, his moves being rather punishable has been a fairly consistant thing between games, no?

I figured he's be generally a hard-to-play character at higher skill levels, but I look at it as that makes your wins that much more satisfying...
 
Uh, Nightmare's poke game isn't bad at all, plus he has one of the best backsteps in the game and a lot of "stay out of my face" moves which honestly makes him quite difficult to approach, at least with characters with not as much range. Spamming 1K and your options after that are honestly the best options you have with NM.

Saying Nightmare is extremely hard to use is overreacting a bit. He has more than all the tools he needs to win, especially along with his movement, which is important in this game.
 
^ditto

Something to point out: In SCV NM has good pushback on a lot of his 'unsafe' moves making them safe to a large number of the cast. negative frames isn't the whole story.

I find that NM is really good at safely applying guard pressure. Thing's like 66B, 236B, 4B, and 44B. He has arguably the best spacing in the game, best horizontals in the game, some really good braindead wall combo's, and one of the best ringouts in the game.

Some people say his CE is risky, but if you're in a situation where you know the opponent will fire back at you, it's essentially a non-returnable GI that costs twice as much, which in some situations is quite worth it. It's definitely not a YOLO CE that's for sure, but just because it's not that great compared to other's CE's doesn't mean you should not use it. Make the opponent fear you when you have a bar of meter. The expression that comes to mind here is "the threat is often stronger than the execution".

As far as his sc3 iteration, it's been so long since I touched that game that I honestly don't remember all that much. One thing I can tell you is that he hasn't changed much at all, aside from a few move changes here and there, he's essentially the same.

In my opinion he's better now than he's ever been, mainly because of more pushback and more variety of safe moves.

You can always count on seeing at least one NM in every tournament, and he often times places high, so to say he's bad I think is wrong. ZWEI and Raphael are bad, NM is not.
 
I guess the bad poke game bit I read was either SCIV or just pure nonsense. Or maybe I'm just imagining I read something and I'm really a lunatic, that's possible too.

Thank you guys for all the help, by the way. Joining here and trying to look at frame data, notation, it's all a touch overwhelming.
 
MightyOmega said:
Uh, Nightmare's poke game isn't bad at all, plus he has one of the best backsteps in the game and a lot of "stay out of my face" moves which honestly makes him quite difficult to approach, at least with characters with not as much range. Spamming 1K and your options after that are honestly the best options you have with NM.

Saying Nightmare is extremely hard to use is overreacting a bit. He has more than all the tools he needs to win, especially along with his movement, which is important in this game.
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Yes, he does have a good backstep, but after the backstep nerf (making it unsafe to guard after stepping), spacing becomes risky/limited and at times guarding is a better option.

NM doesn't really have any good moves against downed opponents. GS B and 66B will whiff most of the time against experienced players. 1k against downed opponents is pretty much all you have.

Don't expect 1A to work against experienced players also. You might want to read up on my NM strategy thread.

But pretty much yeah, he hasn't changed much from SC3.

I do agree with CaptainHook that keeping at least 1 full charged meter is useful for making your opponents fear it.
The only problem with the CE is the execution: sometimes you'll just go into GS.
If CE was just a press of a button that would make it one of the best CE's in the game.
 
LockDownZ said:
Honestly, NM is extremely HARD to play.
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A lot of what you are saying isn't true.

His CE is extremely risky and isn't worth it for the damage output
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His CE is risky, but 80 damage is more than worth it near the end of the round, where it is most threatening. Hell, smacking them with an early CE is great for making them shake in their boots later on. And like Captain Hook said, the threat of it is often times more deadly than the CE itself. Because of this, it is required to actually use it, if only a few times a set.

and his edge attacks aren't really that good.
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If by "aren't really that good" you mean "aren't spammable and safe to use all the time" then you are correct. His BEs are absolutely fantastic for their intended purposes.

NM may seem to have good wall combos, but they are extremely hard to setup against experienced players.
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They really aren't that hard to set up lol. Aga makes them afraid to step, 66K/3B makes them afraid to duck, and fca+g is there to keep them cornered to the wall. His wall pressure is completely top-notch and really makes him shine. Aga/66B spam in the corner is great for making your opponent piss themselves.

Yes, he does have a good backstep, but after the backstep nerf (making it unsafe to guard after stepping), spacing becomes risky/limited and at times guarding is a better option.
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Most of the time, guarding is the better option than doing anything. This applies to everyone. If you don't take the occasional risk with NM, you aren't playing NM correctly. Backstepping is more than worth the risk, because the reward can be insane, and it was way too safe prepatch.

NM doesn't really have any good moves against downed opponents. GS B and

66B will whiff most of the time against experienced players. 1k against downed opponents is pretty much all you have.
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GS B and 66B whiff because your opponent is rolling to the wrong side. His ground game is:
GS B to catch left rolls
44B to catch right rolls
1K to wake them up
66B for people playing dead
flapjacks for trolling
2a+b after certain knockdowns (a+g, 3b, 1a) will catch rollers AND people who play dead
GS K BE will pickup people if they attempt to roll after plenty of knockdowns too, like aga and 4KK

His ground game is a guessing game, but ranges from medium risk (GS B, 66B) to virtually no risk (44B, 1K). NM's oki is another of his strong points. You aren't looking to score big damage from oki, but you're looking to get them scared into rolling, getting them to stand and block GS B for guard damage or 66B for advantage AND guard damage, which will eventually let you get big damage.


GroxGlitch said:
The question's in the title:

What good moves did NM lose? What good moves did NM gain? Things to watch for? I had noticed that NM lost the 4B guard-break launcher he had in III, but that's all that really stood out.
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NM has changed quite a bit from SC3 to SC5 I believe. From SC4 to SC5, however, he has remained basically the same. The only thing that has changed is the game itself, and it has changed to his favor. Otherwise, what to look out for hasn't changed; that mainly comes down to matchup knowledge.

NM is really good in SC5, and is perfectly viable in competitive play, much like most of the cast.

Also, is old 4B animation is now his UB. He lost his old UB animation though.
 
LockDownZ said:
Yes, he does have a good backstep, but after the backstep nerf (making it unsafe to guard after stepping), spacing becomes risky/limited and at times guarding is a better option.

NM doesn't really have any good moves against downed opponents. GS B and 66B will whiff most of the time against experienced players. 1k against downed opponents is pretty much all you have.

Don't expect 1A to work against experienced players also. You might want to read up on my NM strategy thread.

But pretty much yeah, he hasn't changed much from SC3.

I do agree with CaptainHook that keeping at least 1 full charged meter is useful for making your opponents fear it.
The only problem with the CE is the execution: sometimes you'll just go into GS.
If CE was just a press of a button that would make it one of the best CE's in the game.
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I said spamming 1K, not 1A....
 
about the backstep nerf, it is risky, but you can mitigate this to a degree with the 214-step. Just wanted to point that out.
 
for a more complete list:
  • AAb4 - from SC2 is back
  • 3A2A - no longer has its GS transition
  • 4A - lost it's guard break lightning but has longer stun
  • agA - has KND and wallsplats on normal hits
  • no longer has his FC A from SC3 - same animation as 2A
  • new WR A
  • WR AA/WR Aa6 from SC3 is now 22AA/22Aa6

  • no longer has his BBB from SC3 - now has BB from SC2
  • aB/a(B) from SC3 is now 6B/6(B)
  • no longer has his bA/bA6
  • 1B/1(B) from SC3 is now 44B/44(B)/11B/11(B) - now has stun on normal hit
  • 4B from SC3 is now 4A+B - is now an unblockable

  • no longer has 3(K)
  • no longer has 4(K)K
  • no longer has 4KB/4(K)B:B
  • new WR K

  • A+B - now hits crouching and grounded opponents
  • 2A+B - both 2A+B and A+B have lost their Soul Charge-esqe buff
  • 3A+B from SC3 is now 1B
  • 4A+B from SC4 is now 66B - is no longer an unblockable
  • 2B+K - no longer has its guard break lightning
  • no longer has BT B+K - changed to NSS
  • no longer has A+K

  • 66A now has GS transition
  • no longer has 22AB from SC3
  • new 44A
  • no longer has 11B from SC3
  • 44BB/44B(B) from SC3 is now 4B/4B(B) - launches on normal hit
  • 22K now stuns opponent - no longer has GS transition
  • no longer has 33

  • GS B/GS B6 now launches on normal hit - no longer has GS (B) (can be combo'd into itself)
  • no longer has GS KK - is now GS K
  • no longer has GS A+B
Update..…………............................
Missed out a few things:

4A+B from SC4 is now 66B - is no longer an Unblockable

33B BE 2nd hit has NM's SC3 unblockable animation - is not an unblockable

4K BE/4K BE:B 3rd and 4th just frame hit have SC4 6B:B animation - almost simulates SC4 4KB:B

2B+K BE - has guard break lightning and tremor effect

GS K BE 2nd hit has SCV WR A animation, 3rd hit has A+B explosion animation - almost simulates GS KK
 
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