My study on auto-gi.

KnightSpirit

KnightSpirit

[09] Warrior
A lot of people have the impression that auto-gi are very risky moves, and they are only good for style point. Why risk an auto-gi when I can simply block my opponent's attack? But constant blocking means you are allowing an un-pressure opponent to invade your territory, and nothing is more dangerous than an opponent who is free to do whatever he likes during a match. Not to mention the issue with soul gauge damage and CF.

A successful auto-gi can put tremendous mental pressure on your opponent, because you are STEALING his turn to attack (you are countering at disadvantage frame) and you give the impression that you are reading him like a book. This will FORCE your opponent to change his game plan, forcing your opponent to do something else is very different from your opponent changing his tactic to confuse you. Because YOU are the one in control, and you are preventing them to play the game the way they wants to be play.

Of course you can't just throw auto-gi out randomly with a success rate of 1/10 and expect to SCARE your opponent with it.... an auto gi attempt that work 3/4 times is much better then something that only work randomly.

So what it really boil down to is how to improve your success rate and reduce the risk of an gi-attempt.

Risk comes from not know what you are doing, so once you know the nature of the game, you will find that auto-gi is actually something VERY practical.

Here's a few pointer guide line to get you started... you can test and see if my insight is correct in your meta, but they should be quite accurate in most mid-high level meta.

But here's the number 1 rule, you cannot go for a GI-attempt when your opponent already knew that you trying to go for one. This will only get you kill. So if you have been trying to pull off auto-gi the pass few matches with no success, then stop trying. Wait till your opponent feels that you are just playing normally then try again later. Practicing auto-gi when your opponent know about it is completely impractical and useless.

1) Learn to read pattern:

I'm not asking you to read how he is going to attack you, just what he will do at a specific situation that YOU create. I often try a few GI-bait move, and study how he react to that situation.

For example: 4B non-counter hit is negative frame on hit, so a good player will often use a fast interrupt on you right after. So if I land 4B-non CH in Round 1, and he does a quick 2A... then I land 4B again in Round 2, and he did a quick 2A again... then chances are the next time I land 4B non-CH, he will do 2A again...

Example 2: after your opponent block 4A or 6A, as long as they don't suspect a GI attempt, they will usually strike with a quick interrupt. So study what he will do in that situation, if your assumption is correct, you should be able to land A+K auto gi next time in the same situation.

Example 3: after your opponent block 3K, you are at minor disadvantage. So usually you can go for a 22A step counter hit combo in that situation. To prevent this, again your opponent will usually do a quick horizontal interupt on you (such as 2A). This will give you another opportunity for auto-gi, so study what he will do after blocking 3K, if he normally do strong verticals, then do 22A step combo next time he block 3K, but if he is aware of your stepping, then you will be good for A+K gi attempt.

There are a lot more example like the above, the idea is to study what your opponent will do when you are at minor disadvantage, if they do vertical, then step them enough with 22A so that they will want to interrupt you with fast horizontals attacks and vice-verse.

2) Know the general rules:

Just like a regular GI, you don't need to know what attack your opponent will use, you just need to know what TYPE of attack he will use to throw at you.

Here's my observation:

- Most powerful WS attacks are MID, so during wake up game, a relic GI attempt is usually a good idea since it GI all mid.

- When you two are at a distance, most charging-in attacks are mid as well. Meaning 66/33/99-whatever... the one that are not mid usually require a much closer distance. So if your opponent is charging in and he run past your Safety distance... then you should go something else, maybe a relic A or relic duck instead of relic GI.

- When you are at minor disadvantage, good player will often do a quick horizontal to prevent you from stepping them. (opportunity for A+K gi)

- The closer you are to your opponent, the less likely they will do B attacks, and the more likely they will do quick interupt.

- A+K is best against player who thinks 2A is KING, because you win big in the Risk vs Reward game. So if you ever face an opponent who will spam 2A whenever he is at minor disadvantage, try to punish them with auto-gi.

I guess that's enough for now, I will add to this when I think of something else. Hope you will find it useful.
 
To add to KS, Mitsu's A+K is actually a pretty good auto GI at -16 on block and it forces crouch. Auto-GIing both horizontal Mids and Highs. Everything is pretty much explained up there. Good luck!

KS: 4B is neutral to +2 on NH.
 
thanks for the insight ks. i am often impressed by your auto gi in your videos but i never have the success you do when i play.
 
Examples are not cool with me. Otherwise its a good read thx for investing time into it.

As a side note I find A+K pretty useful, but its usage is good if set up correctly. The most obvious and useful setups are:
66A
1B
236B
all on hit.
While 236B is something most people do not use often the other two are quite common.
The main reason to why its better b/c its on hit - this is important psychological moment. Most people would expect you to go on with atack on hit more often and thats what you do. Also thats something that prevents them from using a mixup on you - the basic psychology is to atack on block and defend on hit. So unless they expect this particular move they are caught off guard - meaning they would realize you're at disadv/slight adv but still go for defencive option. But since you know what exact move you are going to do you are prepared to counter their defencive moves. The basic defencive moves a player will use are:
- AA
- 2A
- 4B_44B whatever kind of backleap a character has (X, Mits, Amy, Raph etc)
- GI
- 8wr baiting wiff.
ALL this options are destroyed by A+K, that would also track 8wr, your opp could block A+K on reaction but if hes trying to punish a wiffed move he's most likely to release whatever punishment he has in mind or miss an opportunity to punish. Of course this is partially solved with practice. Still those are the most reliable ways to land an A+K aGI consistantly.
 
Belial said:
Examples are not cool with me. Otherwise its a good read thx for investing time into it.

As a side note I find A+K pretty useful, but its usage is good if set up correctly. The most obvious and useful setups are:
66A
1B
236B
all on hit.
While 236B is something most people do not use often the other two are quite common.
The main reason to why its better b/c its on hit - this is important psychological moment. Most people would expect you to go on with atack on hit more often and thats what you do. Also thats something that prevents them from using a mixup on you - the basic psychology is to atack on block and defend on hit. So unless they expect this particular move they are caught off guard - meaning they would realize you're at disadv/slight adv but still go for defencive option. But since you know what exact move you are going to do you are prepared to counter their defencive moves. The basic defencive moves a player will use are:
- AA
- 2A
- 4B_44B whatever kind of backleap a character has (X, Mits, Amy, Raph etc)
- GI
- 8wr baiting wiff.
ALL this options are destroyed by A+K, that would also track 8wr, your opp could block A+K on reaction but if hes trying to punish a wiffed move he's most likely to release whatever punishment he has in mind or miss an opportunity to punish. Of course this is partially solved with practice. Still those are the most reliable ways to land an A+K aGI consistantly.
Click to expand...

Your example are not bad, but it really depend on who you are playing against. You suggest that A+K auto-gi should be use when you land a hit that net you a minor advantage/disadvantage. However, unless your opponent have really good reaction and he knows your character well, they will simple block after you land a 66A or 1B... and since A+K is punishable on block, A+K might not work very well against most player in this situation.

I don't know about your meta, but in my meta, I rarely see people get hit by mitsu 66A, then able to shake the stun and 2A back in time... normally they will just shake the stun and block... asking them to counter after getting hit by 66A seems to be asking too much from your opponent.

I use my example because I realize most people will counter-attack under those situation.... but I guess different folks different stroke... it all boil down to whether or not you can read your opponent countering habit.
 
I'm just going to Chime in.

I find Mitsu's Mist 66 or RLC B+K MST evades to be extremely great.

they go under MIDS!!! like nothing.

One time I went under a 2A!!

The built in evade of Mist can be used with auto-gi timing IMO.
 
Great thread.
Overall, I find Mitsu's auto-GI just great. They reward you a lot and are not that difficult to pull off.

About the B+K, I believe that a perfect GI (the red one) will give you a free 33B --> 60 dmg :o
It's a very good move against some specific characters or moves. For example, Kilik players like to do the 214B move to have a free 3K:B (or something like that), B+K is a good way to definitely dissuade them.
B+K is also very efficient against a lot of Seong Mina moves (66A+B, BBB, 6BB, 4B+K, 2B+K, 8B, 44B,...).
There's also Nightmare's 3B, X's 6A+B or even Cervantes' BBB.

I find it pretty hard to use the A+K auto-GI as I don't seem to find the right timing for it. B+K seems to work exactly like a GI, but A+K seems to have a little delay to it (not sure though), so I just use it mainly as a tech trap (which works great).

The auto-GI of the RLC stance is just wonderful. Does a lot of damage, really puts pressure on the opponent, and there's tons of setups to do to bait the opponent into a MID, which is the "safe" way to fight anyway for most players (2A, 3K, BB, etc.). KS is right about the WS moves, they sure are mostly Mids. The also like to use quick mids after the MST 6 --> RLC transition.
Having a move as quick as RLC A is what really makes this auto-GI a pain in the ass for your opponent.

PS: DINO -> I saw it go under low-mids as well, it looks like it has close to Sophitia's 236236 TC properties
 
D.I.N.O said:
I'm just going to Chime in.

I find Mitsu's Mist 66 or RLC B+K MST evades to be extremely great.

they go under MIDS!!! like nothing.

One time I went under a 2A!!

The built in evade of Mist can be used with auto-gi timing IMO.
Click to expand...

Dino can you get RLC B+K to go under mid consistently? I try practicing it to go under algol's bubble, but I found the timing much too unreliable to intentionally go under a mid.

musashi: A+K timing is also similar to a regular gi, you can probably get the timing by going into practice mode for 5 min, just watch the purple flashy, you will know whether you press too early or too late.

I like B+K against char like mina and yun seoung too. But the damage is simply too low unless is a p-gi. A+K is much more practical imo.
 
It can also be a decent anti-step move, leads to a big combo if in counter hit.
So A+K is just like a regular GI? Then I shouldn't have problem with its timing with some practice.
 
KS: Imo to truly be useful a set up should be likely to land on somebody who knows a character well. Otherwise its unlikely to work reliably since most people react differently to unpredictable situations. You can either adapt to them and use AutoGI where it covers most options/hits more often or you can create situations where it would work best on most opponents.
My idea is that having an advantage is usually better used for offence (with exceptions of course) so 4A blocked, 4B hit is unlikely to be favorable(considering 4A, A+K a mix up with 4[A]~MST B), on the other hand 3K is really rare and bad move, so there not much chance to reliably set up A+K too unless you've trained your opp and that'd take quite some 3K's (which are crap), that leaves us with 6A blocked that isn't bad if the move itself were useful (maybe you find it useful, I dont, maybe cuz I miss SC2 version. I'd rather go for 6K, btw thx for pointing this move out.)

Also I was talking about 66A on normal hit (-0~-2), not CH, of course.
 
Belial said:
KS: Imo to truly be useful a set up should be likely to land on somebody who knows a character well. Otherwise its unlikely to work reliably since most people react differently to unpredictable situations. You can either adapt to them and use AutoGI where it covers most options/hits more often or you can create situations where it would work best on most opponents.
My idea is that having an advantage is usually better used for offence (with exceptions of course) so 4A blocked, 4B hit is unlikely to be favorable(considering 4A, A+K a mix up with 4[A]~MST B), on the other hand 3K is really rare and bad move, so there not much chance to reliably set up A+K too unless you've trained your opp and that'd take quite some 3K's (which are crap), that leaves us with 6A blocked that isn't bad if the move itself were useful (maybe you find it useful, I dont, maybe cuz I miss SC2 version. I'd rather go for 6K, btw thx for pointing this move out.)

Also I was talking about 66A on normal hit (-0~-2), not CH, of course.
Click to expand...

66A is a step counter-hit attack.... it will stun as long as you hit them while they are moving or attacking... so unless you are in practice mode... you will almost hit someone normally in a real fight, you opponent must be standing there doing NOTHING and not guarding... I can't think of any situation that a normal hit can apply to. Also, even if you do land a normal hit 66A, it will push the opponent so far back, unless you are playing against NM with aga, you will rarely see a horizontal interrupt from that distance.

Anyway, you should try 6A & 6[A], that move is awesome when use at sword tip range. So many deadly mix-up hit or block.

3K also have a few not so obvious advantage.
1) is a fast mid body attack (so you won't get GI by things like asura dance)
2) is not a special mid like 2A, so it can't be tech jump.
3) at close range, mitsu doesn't have many fast mid interupt other then this and 2A
4) unlike 2A, after this is block, you are still in STANDING position and only at minor disadvantage, this can lead to 22A step counter set-up.
5) 3K by itself might not be all that great, but to me, is about what you can do AFTER 3K (hit or block). This move can set you up for many great things.
 
KS:
On 66A - despite somewhat readable animation, which lead me to think its blockable on reaction - its not (or at least pretty difficult to block on reaction) so generally you can mix it up with 2KB (ex BB/AA into 66A/2KB - nonsteppable mid /steppable low, it also deals most damage among mitsus non-launcher mids (32) , personally I dont use it that often b/c its bad on hit and easy to interrupt, but it actually looks good on paper, haha.

I've read what you posted on 6A its interesting but I couldnt really find applications to 6A, I'll take some closer look to this and 3K as well, your points are valid, however though 3K might be fine on block its not that good on hit, considering you have to use fast interrupt against characters with fast A (>i12) i dont really see many options.

I find even WS A +3~+4 adv a bit difficult to take advantage of vs chars like Amy/Yoshi/Soph, it brings another interesting issue on stance move speed being range dependant. Try following scenario. Mit vs Amy - Mits WS A, 6B+K~MST B4B_BBB , Amy gets hit by WS A tries to interrupt with 6BBB.
On close range (WS A 6B+K) she will clash with B and interrupt, but on farther ranges (BB 6B+K etc) she will get hit. It doesnt apply to Taki, Yoshi and others though who get hit everytime.
 
There are some strings which you can throw out A+K auto-gi and interupts, or perhaps only one(that I've found at least...

Cass's 4BBA jf if activated right after the 2nd B is blocks, the A will be impacted.
 
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