Natsu match-up and anti-character general discussion thread

[Rufus]

Hi, guys! I want to hear your opinion about Pyrha. I have some troubles against her, and i want to know how you deal with it.

Prob #1
My playstyle is pretty "lame", i like turtling and zoning, and i like to play safe. But she force me to be more random and agrresive ( If i play too safe then she breaks my armor in first round, if i too agressive then prob #2

Prob #2
I have no solid offence against her on middle - far range. She have one answer to everything - 22_88K. I cant do mid for damadge 66B, i cant do antistep 66A,B, i cant throw her, she evades all this moves. The only options is 3A (ansafe + i cant do it while running) and A+B(that move just not too good basically).

Of course Pyrha has her week points (like i can punish almost everything) and beatable, but sometimes i just frustrated how easy she can win.

 

[Rufus]

P.S. would like to see long set Hawkaye vs Xeph

 

[SoNG-Of-SiLeNCe]

Prob #1
My playstyle is pretty "lame", i like turtling and zoning, and i like to play safe. But she force me to be more random and agrresive ( If i play too safe then she breaks my armor in first round, if i too agressive then prob #2

Natsu has the fastest moves in the game, she is one of two characters who can punish just about anything Pyrrha has.
Use this to your advantage, get in her face, and don't get stabbed.

Prob #2
I have no solid offence against her on middle - far range. She have one answer to everything - 22_88K. I cant do mid for damadge 66B, i cant do antistep 66A,B, i cant throw her, she evades all this moves. The only options is 3A (ansafe + i cant do it while running) and A+B(that move just not too good basically).

Don't stay at that range. If you are at that range, she's spacing you out and she's controlling the match.

 

[FleshMasher]

I was having huge problems against Syn's Pyrrha in Cannes.
Her backstep is good and can become a problem for Natsu at advantage.
She can be played quite safe, which can also be a problem.
What really annoys me is her 3B which can become safe at tip range.
Best chances to punish 3B has 6A+B BUT PO A and i think PO K will most likely whiff due to range so go for A+B without PO, or do other stuff from PO.
Back to my matches with Syn, all i can say is i did the most damage from JGing and punishing Pyrrha's shit.
But i lost.

Some ideas at mid range, risk a 66K or 1A (even though 1A is terribly unsafe you'll probably "just" eat 236B)
4A also has ok range, as well as 6KA and the A can maybe catch her if the 6K whiffs, same could apply for 2BA.
6B and 66B track into different directions so that could make evasion a bit harder for her too.
11_77A to annoy her although it doesn't TC.

PS.: How about bombs? (4A+B has good range too, splash damage could launch her despite step, although then Air Grab could fail so i'd go for Bomb~ A+B.

A question from me, could 11_77K complement 22_88B tracking-wise? (Like 66B/6B) or has 11_77K just worse tracking than 22_88B?

PPS.: Beware crappy hits like A:6 on tip range where half the attack whiffs, leaving you unsafe.
(Happens for example when punishing her 66A if i remember correctly)
Can also happen with Natsu's 44A on tip range.

PPPS: 2bA/4a+bA Kuzukiri can hit before evasion/backstep even starts, at close range though.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

Hi, guys! I want to hear your opinion about Pyrha. I have some troubles against her, and i want to know how you deal with it.

Natsu has the fastest moves in the game, she is one of two characters who can punish just about anything Pyrrha has.
Use this to your advantage, get in her face, and don't get stabbed.


Don't stay at that range. If you are at that range, she's spacing you out and she's controlling the match.

Pyrrha is a bit of a troublesome opponent for Natsu because Pyrrha excels at the range that Natsu is most comfortable with, i.e. around close-mid range. If you stay in Pyrrha's comfortable range, her pokes and relatively safe moves can feel overwhelming. As a result, your only option is to try and zone Pyrrha (same with Leixia) from mid range-long range and then try and pounce on her when you find an opening. I try to work in 66B or A+B when I can since these moves from mid range seem to get a decent outcome in relation to the risk involved (especially with the option for 66B4 or A+B4 to avoid AA punishes).

I concur with Fleshmasher's suggestion to implement bombs because their range is perfect for zoning Pyrrha out of close-range. The ability to use 4A+BA to make it safe from 236B punishes is another plus. If the bomb hits, great, you can go for big damage. If it whiffs, you can cancel it with 4A+BA.

As for your playstyle, 22K should only be a problem if she's constantly stepping your linear moves or interrupting your attempts at offense. 22K is a high so you can duck it or use a TC move. If you're outside of 22K range, A+B should shut it down or at worse get kicked out of the air (thus avoiding its crumple stun). If you're turtling Pyrrha, don't let her abuse her moves that have good guard gauge damage such as 66B, 3B or 4B. You'll need to find a balance between rushing her down (Natsu's specialty) and zoning her moves.

If you want to go aggressive on Pyrrha, work in your AA's, 6KA's, 3KK's, PO B's, 6B's, 66B's, 6A+B4's, etc. As long as you're not using any unsafe pokes against Pyrrha, she should be manageable. A couple notes. Try to minimize the amount of time in Pyrrha's 1K range or throw range. This will eliminate most of her mix-up game. Don't let Pyrrha abuse BB's on you. AA her when you can since it's faster than any of Pyrrha's moves.

As for tracking on 11K, it's slightly better than 22B's tracking, but I much prefer 22B's added range. If I'm in 11K's range, I usually go for 22A and fish for that stun on hit.

 

[SoNG-Of-SiLeNCe]

Pyrrha is a bit of a troublesome opponent for Natsu

I'll listen to the wiser here. Online it seems like I'm making her duck with her insane fast horizontal highs and throws and lows, and then 66b-ing her to oblivion.
I'll take your advice as the high level play's howto and try to play more like it.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

I'll listen to the wiser here. Online it seems like I'm making her duck with her insane fast horizontal highs and throws and lows, and then 66b-ing her to oblivion.
I'll take your advice as the high level play's howto and try to play more like it.

Thanks for the vote of confidence but my playstyle is moderate. This is based on how I've played at local tournaments. If you want high level advice, go with kAb, Fleshmasher or Hawkeye. I like 66B because of how difficult it is to punish, its great damage and the ability to mix it up with 66B4 for some rushdown mixups. Remember that Natsu has more options for offensive mix-ups than Pyrrha has.

If Pyrrha is ducking you, you're either trying to throw her too much, or using too many highs like AA or the second hit of BK. Pyrrha actually shouldn't be ducking too much because she has great TC moves instead such as 236AA, 236B, 3A, 3A+B, etc. to name a few. If you duck against Natsu, you're eating a 66B or A+B, + oki.

 

[SoNG-Of-SiLeNCe]

+ oki.

There's the problem though. THAT got nurfbatted like nuffin'.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

There's the problem though. THAT got nurfbatted like nuffin'.

I'm not talking about guaranteed oki (yes, I miss the poison darts too ='( ), I'm talking about the advantage gained from the knock down. If you nail someone with an A+B for example, you get one of Natsu's best oki positionings and basically can do whatever you want afterwards including bombs.

 

[kAb]

Hi, guys! I want to hear your opinion about Pyrha. I have some troubles against her, and i want to know how you deal with it.

Prob #1
My playstyle is pretty "lame", i like turtling and zoning, and i like to play safe. But she force me to be more random and agrresive ( If i play too safe then she breaks my armor in first round, if i too agressive then prob #2

Prob #2
I have no solid offence against her on middle - far range. She have one answer to everything - 22_88K. I cant do mid for damadge 66B, i cant do antistep 66A,B, i cant throw her, she evades all this moves. The only options is 3A (ansafe + i cant do it while running) and A+B(that move just not too good basically).

Of course Pyrha has her week points (like i can punish almost everything) and beatable, but sometimes i just frustrated how easy she can win.

I saw this earlier this morning before I went to work but didnt reply because something like this requires a lengthy response and not just a quick blurb.

Pyrrha is an amazing character and is a hard matchup for natsu because she has the tools to punish -12 and -14 well. In addition she is one of two characters where your speed advantage doesn't mean a ton since her aa is only one frame slower than yours and she has a multitude of tc moves that will beat aa or 4a+ba.

Above all else you need to reduce how many 236b punishes you eat. Try to avoid throwing out things that are -14 or worse without confirming if they will hit or not.

As others have mentioned, if 22k is giving you problems your solutions are to a+b, 3a, 2a, ws aaa ch confirm or make a read and duck. Punishing with 6a+b4 po a:6/4b/ws b4a+ba. While a+b, 3a and ws aa are punishable, they are not 236 b punishable so not quite as risky to throw out. Alternately you can back step and punish with 3b, 66b or bomb. this is risky if she reads it and tosses a 3b/44a etc.

I'm not sure why you have an aversion to a+b it is still an amazing move post patch. Has incredible forward range, mid, tj, good damage, slight ss up close, pseudo safe. You probably know this but if they try and punish a+b with aa and you do a+b4 you can whiff punish the aa with 66b. Same with if they try to punish a+b4 with a stab, 3b, or ce. They guess wrong you block and can punish them. The same concept can be applied to 66b as well. 66b4 at mid to far range block cannot be punished by 236b, if they try to you can hit them with po b for free. Combo into 1a or ce for great damage. 44a can have a similar effect though its hard to judge the distance. If only the second hit of 44a is blocked, the move becomes -13 and not -14 so if they try and stab punish, you can block it.

I'm not super big on bomb spacing, its pretty slow asking to be ch by 66a, 44a or anything else really. If you mess up and whiff, even with the a cancel you can get stabbed.

Speed is great in this match for jg and block punish purposes. You can really hurt Pyrrha on jg where most others only get aa or even nothing in the case of a move like 4k with very fast recovery. Any poke you jg should probably be a:6'd but if you manage to jg 2b, 3a+b, 44a, 3a, or 6b+k you can land a free 3b.

For normal block punishment it is essential that you can reliably punish her 66a with a:6. Unless she does it at max range you can usually hit the full 3 hits no problem. Same goes with b+k its -11 and can be a:6'd if they don't do the follow up.

Be aware that 6a+b4 po a:6 into 1a doesn't work on Pyrrha for some reason. She can block it normally.

Other useful and needed block punishment.

4ab can be punished with 4b into 1a/44k/ce
1k can be punished with 4b into 1a/44k/ce
22b by itself can be 3b'd
22b extensions can be b+k b+g air throw'd for 60 damage, or you can land a 4a+b bomb. Timing is different depending on whether she does ba or bak
Her 3b is weird, as fleshmasher mentioned 6a+b hits consistent at all ranges but the po follow ups also whiff at all ranges. I like to go for 6b as my punish normally, as it reaches well at all but max range, and if she blocks it due to distance you are still safe. Sucks we don't have a more consistent punisher.
44b+k can be punished with 4a+ba, its not much, but its 8 damage and frame adv in their face.
236 aa can be punished with 6a+b and the po followups, if you can reliably jg the second hit you can 66b. Alternately 8ka will work here as well.

There are many more unsafe moves but these are some of the more obscure ones I see go unpunished or not max damage punished.
Very important to take max damage punish whenever possible.

On that note two advanced things to up your damage.

1. Similar to maxi, if you jg the last hit of her CE it gives you enough frame adv to land a 4a+b bomb into whatever. Much better than our usual 66b punish.

2. Learn how to just ukemi guard (JUG) her common 66b be tech traps off of 22a and ch 1k. You jg the first hit step either direction and 4a+b bomb into ce or a+b. air throw tends to whiff. If you can learn to do this consistently you will take away some of her damage and land quite a powerful hit of your own.

Try to duck 4b if you can spot it, punish accordingly.

Her 3a is safe against natsu unless you jg it.

At -4 your 66b will go under aa and around bb

At -6 your 66b will go around bb while your 3b will go under aa. Little tidbits if you make a read.

4k on block with a ring edge to your right into a+b will jump over 2a and ring out. Catches hesitation step and some other things as well.

This was all I wanted to say for now, any questions feel free to post up.

 

[SoNG-Of-SiLeNCe]

blurb.

kabAboss

 

[FleshMasher]

22b extensions can be b+k b+g air throw'd for 60 damage

Yesterday i rung out a Pyrrha via Air Grab who tried to Ring me Out with 22BAK xD
Angle dependent though.

PS.:

Okay tested 22_88B/11_77K vs her 22_88K:
(Pyrrha on P1 side)

After FC A+B on normal hit (+12) 22_88B kills 22K (except after FC 2A+B on absolute tip range) and 11_77K kills 22_88K.

After 22_88A on CH (+13) 22_88B kills 22K and 11_77K kills 88K (Both directions under some circumstances)

After Pyrrha's 3B on block (+16) 22_88B kills 22K and 11_77K kills 88K (Both directions under some circumstances)

So it seems that 11_77K indeed tracks in the opposite direction of 22_88B.

 

[Rufus]

Thx for the answers)

1 - theory)

I didnt like A+B/A+B4 couse of risk reward, it is ok to spam it in first rounds, but when Pyrrha get CE it is too risky. Same situation for 66B/66B4 (even worst).

Try to duck 4b if you can spot it, punish accordingly

It is very very difficult =( I think it is possible only if you anticipating this move.

Similar to maxi, if you jg the last hit of her CE it gives you enough frame adv to land a 4a+b bomb into whatever. Much better than our usual 66b punish

Intresting stuff, but my opponent do not do random CE's xD I will try not to forget this.

2 - practice (i played this weekend )

A+B was pretty good, shuts down many her options and movement. But i must say i gues more then my opponent when to A+B4 or just A+B.

4B is nice punish for 1K ) Long time ago i had problems with it, couse sometimes from FC 4B was like 214 B, and this is not what i want) But this time everything was ok, so i'm not afraid of this punish anymore.

WSK was good too, if i manage to read when my opponent try to interapt me with i11 AA.

8A+B - safe against Pyrrha, pretty nice.

Overall i was more comfortable with that tools against her, but still to win i needed to be very random =( And this is what i dont like most.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

*Snip*

Sounds like you have a pretty interesting matchup on your hands. Pyrrha can be a pain in the ass for Natsu but she's definitely not unbeatable. You also don't have to be "Random"(Natsu's not Dampierre lol), you just need good spacing and being careful in how you rush her down. A+B and A+B4 are good moves in a general and in this matchup. People generally only try to punish A+B with AA's (however, if I'm not mistaken I think Pyrrha may be the only person that can punish A+B with BB's). Nevertheless kAb's trick of doing 66B (or 66B BE) after a A+B4 tends to work very well to punish AA attempts after A+B.

8A+B is also a great move for causing guard gauge damage and keeping space from Pyrrha on block, not to mention interrupting a lot of her moves. How does the Pyrrha player use their CE's? Are they being used to whiff punish you at range? Like kAb said, if you can JG the last hit (which surprisingly isn't too difficult), then you can punish Pyrrha hard!

Do you have a video of your playstyle? I'm trying to picture how you're playing Natsu.