Openers and follow-ups? (Also - short intro)

MadNuke

[08] Mercenary
Hello. I am a long-time fan of the SC series (and fighting games in general). I placed 2nd in a local SC2 tournament as Talim when I was quite a bit younger. I have a tendency to strive for perfection when it comes to games; when I recently discovered this forum I decided to learn how to play Kilik on a competitive level. For the past week or so I've been going back and forth between this forum, training, and online ranked play, where I win about 1 in 4 games. I do poorly in online ranked for several reasons: I don't have the experience to string together moves well or counter certain strategies, I have a hard time recovering psychologically after I get smacked, and I cannot become comfortable with the input delay. I still make noob mistakes like ending my block early or getting ringed out. I also play with two friends occasionally; they are decent and I win about 65% of the time against them.

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Anyway, I was wondering which moves are good openers for Kilik. I presume it never safe to attack as soon as a round starts, I usually 44, 88 immediately. I use 2A often, as recommended here. I also use 66B, because I have seen it used to open in competitive tournament videos. I often try to WR A_B as an opener, but I have problems doing them as quickly as possible because I only learned of WR moves last week. Besides those, I don't open with any one move regularly; so, what are some of his best openers?

When I 2A, I often follow up with WS Y. I've heard 2A is good because it can be followed up with many things, but which would you most recommend?

When my 66B lands, I'll either Asura or 44aB. Are there any better options?

What should I do when 66B is blocked and Kilik ends up in close range? I have an ingrained habit of WC K, but I've been trying to get used to using WR A_B, WC A+B, or 1K as soon as I block something. I have read the "attacking at a disadvantage thread", but it contains many moves and I would be more comfortable learning from a smaller pool at first.

There are other moves I open with based on context. Against a Cervantes/Shura who likes to teleport, I will sidestep into Asura. Against a player using vertical openers, I will 4A. How can I follow these up? What other openers are good for specific match-ups?

The more I play, the more often I get "in the zone" and start naturally stringing together ideal moves, but I still find myself either reverting to old habits and defending poorly/using generic irrelevant moves or trying to process all the information I've learned and becoming overwhelmed. Hopefully any answers to these questions will help me to play more fluidly and effectively.

Thanks!
 
Welcome to the boards MadNuke, I'll try and address each of your points one at a time:

First point: If you are comfortable playing SC with people who aren't your friends, you should look at the matchfinder forum to find people near you who play offline. You will instantly avoid the hurdles of online play and the adjustment period if you are lucky enough to live in an area with an active community. Bring your friends too; if they happen to be into the game as you are. Matchfinder Link: http://www.8wayrun.com/categories/regional-matchmaking.83/

Second Point: If your stuck playing online, Never EVER EVER play ranked. Ranked is a joke. If your looking for legit comp; try the online forum here to find SPECIFIC people to play who are willing to teach as well as play with you in a manner which simulates actual competitive play, not the usual lag-fest ranked is. Heres a place to start looking: http://www.8wayrun.com/threads/psn-xbl-new-player-development-matchmaking.5826/

A few things with Kilik, based on my tournament play against him.

66B is borderline spammable, it's so good. The most effective way to use this is find the "tip" range where it hits, and throw it out at that particular range. It's safe on block and pushes away, and does respectable SG damage. It also hits grounded. 3A+B gives you a free 66B grounded hit too.

2A is one of the best poke lows in the game. It leaves you at neutral frames afterwords, so mixup the following options for good results: WR B (this sidesteps, and stuns on normal hit and combos in 66B) or command/normal throws, or do nothing in case you think your opponent has a means of interrupting WR B.. but most don't. You could also do 2A, crouch cancel, and do 2A for annoyance value.

When 66B lands on CH, just do 66B again. Either it hits them grounded or they are forced to block it and get pushed away.

If your going to attack at disadvantage, the moves you want to use are Asura for its TJ/Auto-Parry properties, 1B for its sidestep, 1K for its TJ and speed, and if you get interrupted your floating versus grounded hit. Honorable mention to 4B+K, but that gets a HUGE boost online and is borderline stupid. If your good at reading your opponent's slower attacks post-guard; use 6AAA if you can read a CH. Kilik is the BEST frame-advantage disrespecting character in the game, hands down.

That should get the ball rolling, and once again, welcome.

-Idle

PS: if you do intend to learn the game competitively and play online, if you haven't already checked it out, please read the "Online Facts and Basics" thread. It can help you figure out what things are actual skills your learning, and which things are being lag boosted and are not actually your skill at all: http://www.8wayrun.com/threads/online-play-facts-and-basics.5692/
 
Thanks for the excellent response; I appreciate it. I posted in the regional meetup thread. I also despise the lag online. Instead of learning to take advantage of that lag, I've just been practicing against friends as well as soul edge difficulty CPU and working on the tower of souls. Will this help me improve my game?

Solid advice on 2A. I notice that when I follow with WR B it's usually blocked. I guess this is fine, because it creates space. I have been successful in getting a 2K or a 1K in if I'm close after 2A lands. WR K also seems to be a decent follow-up; my opponents often stop blocking before it is finished and get tagged.

I've also been having a lot of success with 4A. It seems to be the same sort of concept as 1B, but the step is in the opposite direction and the range is greater. Is this right? I find 1B, 4A, 4A+B, and Asura to be a well rounded suite of moves for countering aggression.

I need to work on my step work. I often stupidly move in too close or fail to be sidestepping when I should be.

I also wonder what are some good strings of moves for Kilik. Some of the combo threads have half a dozen follow-ups to a bunch of moves. I'm assuming some are safer and more effective than others. When I get in the zone I tend to naturally fire off smart strings, but I think it helps to learn a new move or follow up and incorporate it into your profile. When I ground an opponent, I like to 4A+B, 8B, 66B, 44aB or BP A. When I launch someone, I try to 3kB but for some reason I have a hard time pulling it off consistently. Against slower opponents, I like to 2A in and immediately 4A+B...I tend to use 4A+B a lot but against faster opponents I'll get smacked for using it when it isn't safe. What are some moves that work well together in sequence?

I can land FotD and Asura consistently, but have a hard time smoothly incorporating them into my game. I often find that opponents will block all 3 of my Asura hits. Should I be using it when I anticipate a strike?
 
Thanks for the excellent response; I appreciate it. I posted in the regional meetup thread. I also despise the lag online. Instead of learning to take advantage of that lag, I've just been practicing against friends as well as soul edge difficulty CPU and working on the tower of souls. Will this help me improve my game?

Online can help you learn match[ups against characters you otherwise wouldn't have any experience with, if your local playgroup or friends don't play those characters. The AI, however, serves basically no purpose except to acclimate you on how to block certain moves. It's actually detrimental to your play because you learn to beat it through pattern recognition, and good human players don't play that way.

Solid advice on 2A. I notice that when I follow with WR B it's usually blocked. I guess this is fine, because it creates space. I have been successful in getting a 2K or a 1K in if I'm close after 2A lands. WR K also seems to be a decent follow-up; my opponents often stop blocking before it is finished and get tagged.

If your WR B is getting blocked or stepped, start throwing right after 2A. If you can do 2A FotD, even better! Throws kill sidestep and force people to start breaking or ducking, which will improve the success rate of WR B, WR K, or WR A. Poking with 2K or 1K is also good, just know that after 2K and 1K hit your left at disadvantage on hit, so strongly consider attacking evasively, or guarding after those hit.

I've also been having a lot of success with 4A. It seems to be the same sort of concept as 1B, but the step is in the opposite direction and the range is greater. Is this right? I find 1B, 4A, 4A+B, and Asura to be a well rounded suite of moves for countering aggression.

4A is by no means a bad move, but let me illustrate the difference between it and 1B

4A hits high, 1B hits mid.
4A knd's on hit, 1B stuns on CH giving a combo for MUCH more damage (1B CH 22B A+K or 1B CH 22B 3bK 66B)
Both sidestep.
Both are fairly quick evasive moves.
4A is -11 on block, 1B is -15.

I highly recommend using 1B over 4A because the risk vs reward is that much better!

I need to work on my step work. I often stupidly move in too close or fail to be sidestepping when I should be.

Against faster character, consider step-guarding in order to block their attempts to cut your sidesteps off. Do this by pressing 8~G or 2~G and you will cancel your step about 12 frames in, into a guard.

I also wonder what are some good strings of moves for Kilik. Some of the combo threads have half a dozen follow-ups to a bunch of moves. I'm assuming some are safer and more effective than others.

This may be a terminology issue- A "Combo" is a series of attacks, such that after the first hit strikes, the subsequent hits CANNOT be escaped.
A "String" is an attack which naturally follows the previous attack in sequence without breaking.

When I get in the zone I tend to naturally fire off smart strings, but I think it helps to learn a new move or follow up and incorporate it into your profile. When I ground an opponent, I like to 4A+B, 8B, 66B, 44aB or BP A.

If you stand very close to a downed opponent, 4A+B is amazing, as long as you don't use any of it's followups. It CAN hit grounded and often people will get up ducking right into it. 66B, I covered last time. 8B is dangerous because a wise opponent will ground roll in on reaction or stand up and step it, punishing you. 44aB is really bad :). BP B and A are decent options. BP B is alot better because if they block it, you get a FREE 3bK on guard! Try it! Most opponents would rather take the grounded hit than the 3bK!

When I launch someone, I try to 3kB but for some reason I have a hard time pulling it off consistently.

Only some launchers guarantee 3kB. AAB CH for example doesn't, but 22B does. Consult the combo thread for that.

Against slower opponents, I like to 2A in and immediately 4A+B...I tend to use 4A+B a lot but against faster opponents I'll get smacked for using it when it isn't safe. What are some moves that work well together in sequence?

The concept of "flow" and "sequence" is something of a misnomer in fighting games. It's really as "do i think my opponent will freeze, or react to what im doing?" You answer that question then adjust accordingly. There is no way to play the game purely on "Flow" or "sequence".

I can land FotD and Asura consistently, but have a hard time smoothly incorporating them into my game. I often find that opponents will block all 3 of my Asura hits. Should I be using it when I anticipate a strike?

Asura should be used when anticipating strikes, yes, or lows. Throwing it out wantonly will get you punished because its -23 if all hits are blocked- a free combo for pretty much everyone in the game. Asura cannot parry highs or body-attacks (attacks done with hands/feet/body), so be aware that it will be MUCH less effective against Astaroth, for example as he Bullrushes often and his throws can air-throw you as well, than will be against, for example, Mitsrugi, who has alot of mid hitting weapon hits, and low pokes.

Anything else I can help you with?

-Idle
 
Not at the moment, I'm gonna try to get some playtime in and work on these things. Your help has been absolutely awesome! Thanks again.
 
since i dont feel like combing through Idle's usual epically long posts, forgive me if this completely repeated, or is just dumb xD

as soon as the fight starts, i usually just close some gap-age with 4B. Worst case senario, they sidestep (which SOME experienced players do), at which point, i would pull a 2_8*BB, since it catches sidesteppers if they decide to get all upz in yer grillz! pretty usefull for me, the hardest part is getting the neutral in a pressured situation if you arent 100% on the timing for it xD
 
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