Punishment and input buffering

Vanvid

Vanvid

[08] Mercenary
Hey,

I've noticed that I have a problem punishing moves. Sometimes when my opponent does a move that I think I can punish with x, I still fail and he gets a counter hit on me. I think I'm too slow.

Say I want to punish a move with my characters 66A (I play Ivy, but it shouldn't matter for this question). Exactly when should I begin to execute the move? Is it possible to begin buffering the move inputs while still holding G (I can't make this work, so I assume it isn't, but that would otherwise explain why I'm having difficulties).

Do buffering rules differ from move to move? For example maybe it's possible to buffer Ivys CS while holdning G, but not her 66A?

-vanvid-
 
Chances are you're either

1)Playing in some massive lag.
2)Not punishing correctly. Mind giving some specific example when this sort of stuff happens?
 
Often, probably both, as I'm beginning to play vs Americans from the EU (europe being devoid of players often...).

I don't have specific examples, as it's more of a 'feeling', and I don't know the different characters well enough to name their moves. SO, you're probably right that I'm not doing it correct. I only know that I think I try to punish with fast moves (Ivy 66A should be i18) and I feel it doesn't work, so I wondered if I should begin to try and buffer the movements (66) earlier.
 
Vanvid said:
Often, probably both, as I'm beginning to play vs Americans from the EU (europe being devoid of players often...).

I don't have specific examples, as it's more of a 'feeling', and I don't know the different characters well enough to name their moves. SO, you're probably right that I'm not doing it correct. I only know that I think I try to punish with fast moves (Ivy 66A should be i18) and I feel it doesn't work, so I wondered if I should begin to try and buffer the movements (66) earlier.
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i18 isn't that fast
 
What is the particular move you are trying to punish with 66A?

Have you tried this in practice mode?
 
Ok, I went to training mode to test it out with some stuff I can write down.

I tested Ivy vs Natsu. First I tried to spam AA with Natsu. If I understand the guide correct AA should be i10 and be -10 on block. So when I block with Ivy and try to retaliate with an i18 move, I should be able to punish, right?

Well I was. Very rarely. And this is with 2 frames "advantage" I guess. Now I dont know if 2 frames may be too little, but what Im getting at is if I have to use these frames for entering my command, which is simple enough but still takes some time (66A) then it doesnt look like Im able to punish it? So what am I missing? Then I thought I might be able to buffer the 66 while holding G, but even after training I still find it hard to tell if this is the case.

I also tried spamming just A with Natsu. This should be i10 and -8 on block. Meaning I should be able to cancel out her attack with my i18 66A. Well, I consistently failed to do this.

So Im still wondering what Im missing.

-vanvid-
 
You don't add the frames together.

i10 means it impacts on the 10th frame
-10 means you can't block for 10 frames

To punish a -10 attack you need an attack that is i10 or faster. The only thing faster is A.Pats CE which is i8
 
Vanvid said:
snip
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No, you misunderstood. We will use you're example, Since Natsu is at -8 that means she cannot block for 8 frames meaning that if you have a move that is i8 or faster then you can attack her before she can block.
 
If you don't consider the pushback of a move on block.
P=Speed of move being used to punish, U=negative frames of move that is being punished.
U≤(-1)P

Example.
U=-22 P=16
-22≤(-1)16
-22≤-16

-22 is less than -16 so this move would be able to punish in this theoretical situation.

SC Example
U=Pyrrha's AS B P=Sieg's 3B
-18≤(-1)18
-18≤-18

3B punishes AS B on block since the negative frames are equal to the speed of this move.
 
Reave said:
You don't add the frames together.

i10 means it impacts on the 10th frame
-10 means you can't block for 10 frames

To punish a -10 attack you need an attack that is i10 or faster. The only thing faster is A.Pats CE which is i8
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Isn't Cervys CE like i9? And iirc a perfectly done Natsu 2bA is i8
 
Reave said:
You don't add the frames together.

i10 means it impacts on the 10th frame
-10 means you can't block for 10 frames

To punish a -10 attack you need an attack that is i10 or faster. The only thing faster is A.Pats CE which is i8
Click to expand...

Okay. Maybe Im using the term "punish" wrong then. In this particular situation Im not referring to be able to hit her before she can block.
Shes spamming AA attacks. So, after the first AA I assume she is now -10 because I blocked it. But she doesnt block now, she attacks with her -10 disadvantage with another AA, which should be i10.
Doesnt that mean that from the moment I block her first AA and until the next AA can hit me there will be 20 frames? And in that case shouldnt I be able to hit her with an i18 (or i19 for that matter) attack?
But maybe its hard to hit the exact timing.

-vanvid-
 
Vanvid said:
Doesnt that mean that from the moment I block her first AA and until the next AA can hit me there will be 20 frames?
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Yes.

Vanvid said:
And in that case shouldnt I be able to hit her with an i18 (or i19 for that matter) attack?
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Yup.

Vanvid said:
But maybe its hard to hit the exact timing.
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Exactly.

Use something faster to give yourself more time. Like AA, or 2A, or BB, or 4B, or 6KB (6KB is the best option).



Consider this.

You can only have so many inputs in one frame of animation. When you input 66A, if you do it perfectly, it takes three frames to input. One for 6, one for neutral, and one for 6A. 6-nothing-6A.

Of course you are not going to be doing it perfectly so it is going to take you longer than three frames to input 66A.

AA probably has short blockstun. What this means is that the attack is blocked and you can move again almost right after. This also means that you have less time to take advantage of the -10 that Natsu is at.

When you have moves with big blockstun, you can fit inputs into it and have them come out on the next possible frame. (That's buffering.)

This is why using 236 moves/CE as interrupt is hard when you are in the open and not dealing with blockstun to buffer with. 236 or 236236 takes time to input and the input can be quite slow if you are not used to it. That wastes any advantage you might have.




tl;dr stop using 66A, use 6KB.
 
DrakeAldan said:
Yes.
You can only have so many inputs in one frame of animation. When you input 66A, if you do it perfectly, it takes three frames to input. One for 6, one for neutral, and one for 6A. 6-nothing-6A.
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Ok, moves that include more than one directional input will basically take 2 more frames (at least) for execution pr direction beyond 1. Which means that (discounting this block-stun, which I don't know what is) a move like 66A could only punish a move that was -21 on block.

This might also explain the notation in training which I actually never understood, about when inputs are put on top of each other and when they're not. On top then probably means, "input during the same frame". Am I learning?

AA probably has short blockstun. What this means is that the attack is blocked and you can move again almost right after. This also means that you have less time to take advantage of the -10 that Natsu is at.
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Would it make any difference? I mean, since I should be able to input the move both during blockstun (where I can buffer) and after blockstun (where I am free to do anything), the first two frames could be used for buffering the moves (6 and neutral) and the rest can be used for inputting the move?
This is all very theoretical speaking of course. I understand why you're saying I should use 6KB, and generally stick to moves that either can be executed in one frame or when I have a considerable advantage.

Reason for using 66A was of course that I has this nice crumbling effect and was relatively fast. So I was looking for opportunities to use it. But now I understand why it might be a little harder than I first thought.

tl;dr stop using 66A, use 6KB.
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What does this "tl;dr" thing mean that people keep saying???

Anyway. Thanks a lot guys for helping me out here.

-vanvid-
 
Vanvid said:
Which means that (discounting this block-stun, which I don't know what is) a move like 66A could only punish a move that was -21 on block.
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No.

A move like 66A can punish a move that is -18, but the move has to execute within that window.

If a move has short blockstun, you have less time for buffering (less time to input your retaliation).

Think of Pyrrha 236B. It is -18 on block. But yet, you can't always punish easily with i18 moves. This is because it has short blockstun. If you do not input your punishment immediately you will miss the buffer period and be "late".

Vanvid said:
On top then probably means, "input during the same frame".
Click to expand...
Yes.

Vanvid said:
Reason for using 66A was of course that I has this nice crumbling effect and was relatively fast. So I was looking for opportunities to use it.
Click to expand...
Use 66A as a spacing tool, or as movement denial (anti-step/anti-backstep) when you have advantage. You should not use it as an interrupt.

Vanvid said:
What does this "tl;dr" thing mean that people keep saying???
Click to expand...
"Too long; didn't read."

Basically a summary for people who don't like reading a lot of text.
 
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