Siegfried Okizeme Study

Slayer_X64

Siegfried SA Moderator
This is a Study that, while done before, has not been looked into in a very long time. i hope that we can build upon the information that we already know and produce a more accurate, and more in depth oki guide for siegfried. posted below are the research results from sdnkorento's okizeme study, with fixed notations due to the new xenoforo code for bold font making all [ B] input notations invisible. these have been replaced with {B}. the information below may be outdated, and some may be off by a few frames. some notations below are rather old, as we have agreed on new standards of notations for siegfried. such examples are shown with the SCH {B}'s and the a+k series. for this study i suggest we use the information below as a base.

i've placed the information in spoiler tags(thanks to jaxel! ^-^); there is alot to take in.

Thanks to sdnkorento for all of the hard work you have contributed to this study.

RESULTS AND CONCLUSIONS

This section's purpose is to sum up whole study. All results and conclusions are drawn from data section, only the most common knowledge is not found from there. Do not forget that conclusions reflects author's gaming style though it aims to be all-round information package for different kind of Siegfried-players.

GROUND-HITS ADVANTAGES:

Bread 'n' butter -moves highlighted. The stance-transition moves are most beneficial as expected. Surprisingly, none of moves were negative, which indicate that SC4's ground-game mechanics have unwent changes. Please notice that values are not 100% correct and should be study with care. Do not draw hasty conclusions.

Keep in mind that you'll usually end up with greater advantage than it's listed. Opponent must be quick to react fast and have timing to buffer his/her moves.

+0 Flapjack (Ground-spin)
+5 22B / 88B
+6 2KK-series / 66A+B / SCH kB / Flapjack (Ground-spin + tech)
+8 1A_AA / 2K
+9 BBB / SSH A_[A]_AA / SRSH A+B
+10 44BB / 66B
+11 BB / 3KK / Flapjack (Lift Up)
+14 B2A / BT BB
+15 44B / SBH [K] / BT 2K
+16 1K
+17 2A+B / SCH B
+18 B2[A] / 7B / SSH B
+19 2B / 44B{B} / SBH B / SBH A+B / SCH k
+22 B / BB{B} / 9B
+23 8B / a+kA:2A / SCH {B}{1}
+24 SCH {B}{2}
+25 2{B} / 22
+26 3{B} / 33
+27 B:4 / B4
+28 88
+30 {B} / 2[A+B]
+33 SSH
+38 44

GROUND-HITS DAMAGES:

This chart shows how much damage each move deals. Only 2KKKKK and SBH [K] are added as combo. S stands for shallow hit and D stands for deep hit. Plus-sign mean that move will usually cause sidehit on grounded opponent which will cause more damage.

0 Flapjack (Ground-spin) / Flapjack (Lift Up)
7 2K
8 BT 2K
9 BB / 1K / 3KK
11 1A / B
12 2B / 3B(s) / a+kA:2A(+)
14 33B(s) / SCH B / SSH A
15 SCH kB
16 BBB / 7B / BT BB
17 SCH {B}{1}
18 1AA
19 3B(d) / 8B / 22B(+) / 88B(+) / 2K-series
21 B2A / 33B(d) / 44B / SSH B
22 9B
23 2A+B
24 SCH {B}{2}
25 SSH AA
26 44B / SBH B
28 B2[A]
29 B4 / 66B(+) / SBH A+B
30 66A+B
33 B:4 / SRSH A+B(+)
49 SBH [K]

OKIZEME-RELATED ADVANTAGES:

CH SBH K was included because it's resemble ground-hit combo-ender. Throws are included because frames gives general idea of after-throw pressure

+5 1B
+16 A_B+G
+33 CH SBH K
+34 FC A+G

STANCE-TRANSITION SPEEDS:

Transition speeds indicate how much you must add to stance-move's start-up time. For example, it takes i36 to do SCH K from SBH. As you see, entering into SBH is fast but getting into SCH take longest time. SRSH and SSH are quite equal.

These data can be used to find out if you have uninterruptible stance-moves follow-ups. For example, after successful 22B ground-hit (+25), you have uninterruptible SRSH K (i19+i18) unless opponent has i12 mid or low.

When opponent realize that he/she can't get up without putting their head in lion's mouth, they prefer rolling. That's where anti-rolling tools comes into play.

From neutral to:

i20 SRSH

From SBH to:

i20 SSH
i23 SRSH
i25 SCH

From SCH to:

i20 SBH
i25 SRSH
i25 SSH
i27 SCH

From SSH to:

i20 SBH
i20 SRSH
i20 SCH

From SRSH to:

i20 SBH
i20 SRSH
i20 SSH
i20 SCH

In other words, getting into certain stance takes:

To SBH:

i20 from SSH
i20 from SRSH
i20 from SCH and from neutral

To SCH:

i20 from SSH
i20 from SRSH
i25 from neutral
i25 from SBH
i27 from SCH

To SSH:

i20 from SBH
i20 from SRSH
i25 from SCH
i20 from neutral

To SRSH:

i20 from SSH and from neutral
i20 from another SRSH
i25 from SCH
i23 from SBH

For uninterruptible SSH As you need around +30 from ground-hit. If you love SSH, know the right situations for maximum effect. Curiously, you get faster into SSH when switching from stance.

SRSH transitions are generally fast except from SBH. {B} and 2[A+B] gives both +30 on ground-hit making your 6B+K~SRSH B (i23 + i18) very hard to interrupt. As SSH {B} and 44{B} gives even more than +30, the only problem is to make opponent stand. Another almost-uninterruptible SRSH B (i20+i18) attempt is after 3{B} on ground-hit which yields +26. Note that SRSH-mixup is not guaranteed after B4.

ANTI-ROLLING MOVES:

All moves that have some kind of roll-catching ability listed below. By roll-catching I mean ability to catch left or right rolls. Some important moves picked up and listed in the end.

Moves that catch Sieg's left:

3B (Fast)
SCH Bs (Stancemove)
SSH B (Stancemove)
SRSH A+B (Stancemove)

Moves that catch Sieg's right:

B4 (Slow)
2B (Short range)
SBH B (Stancemove)
SBH A+B (Stancemove)
66A+B (Weak roll-catch)
BT BB (BT-move)

Moves that cover both sides:

22B (Left roll preferred)
88B (Right roll prefferd)
66B (Not a real roll-catcher, has nice tracking only)
1A (Long range only)
SSH As (Long range only)
a+kA:2A (Long range only, doesn't have normal ground hit)
B2A (Long range only)
BT K (Medium range, but BT-move)
1K (Short range, fast)
Flapjack (Short range)
3KK (Short range, nearly useless)

Recommended:

3B – For left side, great speed, good advantage
22_88B – Excellent covering both sides, great advantage
1K – For short range catching, great speed, decent advantage
a+kA:2A – For long range catching both sides, great advantage

COMBO-ENDERS AND TECH-TRAPS:

Besides of the most damaging combo-enders, 66B, 44K, 66A+B and SRSH A+B, Siegfried has somewhat wide selection of moves that gives good pressure after knockdown or combo. Depending on how much risk you are willing to take, the choices will shape your okizeme-style.

Generally, only SRSH B grants all okizeme-options, SBH B and SCH {B}{2} allows ways for opponent to tech out of slowest slams and shorter stuns shut the most interesting moves out. Alternative for the ones mentioned before is B4 which gives nice damage but great advantage as well. For those who want to gamble there are 44{B}, 22_88{B} or even 2[A+B] and {B} if you can't make 44{B} to connect.

For deeper analysis, each situation must be studied separated. Not every characters were tested and some side-teching directions depends on character. Reliable only with Siegfried but data will give big picture. Keep in mind that every detail is observed though – none is made from my mind. In case of error test Siegfried or different range.

SRSH B
Easy to set up, the best combo-starter for Siegfried. Heavily punishable, so better make successful SRSH B worth it. Has two versions, shallow hit (18 damage) and deep hit (28 damage)

66B and 66A+B
Deals over 60 damage but leaves you with almost barely significant advantage. 66B and 66A+B put you in FC with tiny advantage which will limit you options effectively.

B4, B:4 and 1AA
1AA nets you 60 damage. Though it's is a tech-trap, it push opponent pretty far negating plus-frames. B4s give great advantage and +60 damage as well. Delay them a bit to set a tech-trap, which can be escaped to Sieg's left. Prefer these over 66B and 66A+B

44B
44B's follow-ups can grant you extra damage but punishment as well. 44B{B} and SBH B will force them to stand up or tech, which allows SBH K to step in. In addition to this, you can enter into SRSH-stance, which has pure 50-50-mixup and possibility to smash lying opponent with SRSH A+B. Sadly enough, four out of these five options are punishable but damage will easily increase up to 80-100. In addition to every built-in traps, 44B itself works as a all-catching tech-trap.

22{B}
Where as 88{B} is watered down version of 44{B}, 22{B} opens even more stance-options. SSH has generally slow mix-up with not so devastating effects but it still has it's use. You won't be in big danger even if your follow-ups fails.

88{B} and 2[A+B]
2[A+B] is similar to 44{B}, but you're no able to enter SRSH-stance without a chance getting interrupted. 88{B} place you straight into 50-50 mix-up but with no real threats to make opponent stand up. Therefore both of these are not recommended.

1B
Tech-traps every direction but you need to step once forward. Step to your left before 1B might help as well. On hit, +90 damage but have to be done very quick to cover every direction. Be sure to train this well before trying out in real fights because there's no award for missed 1B

B2A and {B}
While {B} allows you to enter SBH with same advantage as 2[A+B], you can tech-trap them with B2A giving opponent more pressure. If the lying opponents gives headache, smash them up with B2A (with slight delay it will hit after shallow SRSH B), SBH B or just 33B after plain B. To avoid all this, they must tech backwards or to your left, so enter into SRSH where you can freely mix-up without being interrupted. Don't you too often due to uncertainties.

Conclusions
B4s, 1AA, variations of 44Bs, 22{B} and sometimes B-variants. Avoid 66B and other sluggish moves since you have better moves available

SBH B

Though SBH B has highest damage output, you won't bump into it very often. Almost 100% guaranteed after late B+K GI. Because it is launcher, you can apply highs such as a:G:A as well.

66B, 44K and 66A+B
Sluggish moves deals most damage again, this time scaling up to 72+. Using these kills your okizeme, in fact 44K putting you in disadvantage. 44K have slight front-RO properties but 3B or 3A do the same trick with easier timing.

B4 and B:4
B4s is not a100% tech-trap anymore. On close the fastest B4 is 100% guaranteed, others can be avoided by teching Sieg's left. From further every hit will land and even tech-trap every direction. Not spammable because of tricky timing, but gives great advantages on hit and +70 damage as well.

44B
Nothing special, +65 damage and a tech-trap if you have good timing. Otherwise the same old reliable 44B[/B]

a+kA:2AA and 1AA
First one has somewhat hard timing, but grants you +70 damage and cannot be escaped. 1AA won't work well, so this time, prefer a+kA:2AA. Push opponent pretty far though.

22_88{B}
Because SBH B is launcher and follow-up will lift them again. Opponent cannot tech and therefore avoid SSH B or SRSH A+B unless they roll or stand-up which leaves them open to your nasty mix-ups. SSH A will catch all rolling directions but 88{B} has no real answers against rollers to Sieg's right. You can do plain 88B and 1K the rollers and have decent frames on close. In short, both are viable options to keep pressure on.

a:G:A
Worth to mention: nice damage, decent wake-up, but insane when you wall-splat them for relaunch.

Conclusions
Different variations of 44Bs for daredevils. Sometimes B4, 22_88{B}, a+kA:2AA and a:G:A's near walls. For ringouts just 3A or 44K. 66B, 66A+B and 44K if you want highest guaranteed damage.

SCH {B}{2}

Just like SBH B, this gives nice damage, but it's hard to pull this without being stepped, interrupted or GIed. Sidehit gives better damage and shuts out some tech possibilities.

66B and 66A+B
Both hits +70, but only 66B is reliable. 66A+B can be teched to Sieg's side depending on character but on side hit it will connect.

B4s
Tech-traps only Sieg's right, front and backward. Even sidehit won't change properties. 70 damage plus tech-trap and yields nice advantage.

44B
Techable to both sides on normal hit, but during sidehit will catch every direction. However watch out for close hit, because 44B might jump pass opponent. Damage is good, +65 and wake-up monstrous

3B, 3A and agA
For ringouts to front, just use this. Not tremendous pushback, but good enough to win by RO. Damage is +60 and they all give decent advantage. Near wall, a:G:A might splat but it's hard to pull. Forget 66A because it has the same damage but might miss on bad timing.

22_88{B}
Just like after SBH B, puts some pressure on opponent to stand up. After 88{B} they can avoid SRSH A+B by rolling to Sieg's right, but after 22{B} they cannot roll to any direction. Just condition them well with 1K after 88B and everything is fine.

2A+B
If hit, does +60 damage but SBH K won't tech-trap. However on sidehit SBH K will catch them all and it won't whiff like 44B does. Sadly some characters won't get hit at all by 2A+B.

1AA and a+kA:2AA
1AA has issues to hit close but when it connects it cannot be avoided or teched without getting even more punishment. Opponent can tech a+kA2:AA into normal hit making second A useless. Use 1AA to keep them grounded and apply your more devastating and advantageous moves

Conclusions
SCH {B}{2} leaves you few options because almost every move can be teched to your left. Condition them with 1AA and 66B and confuse them with 44Bs and B4s. Spice up their lives with 22_88{B} to mess them even more.

B4 and B:4

Slow and rare-to-hit but good to know how to handle this one. B:4 kills some tech-options which make it better not only damage-wise.

33B
Easy way to score +60. No escape, unless you delay to try tech-catching. Decent advantage.

1B
Tech-traps every direction but if opponent is too far, they can escape to your right. However after B:4, this will catch right tech from a bit further. On hit, +105 damage which definitely encourage opponent to lie down. On hit, almost no advantage but it's worth it.

22_88{B}
Another fast move that cannot be rolled easily. It's not blockable but opponent can avoid these by teching. Sometimes they catch techers but it's very very unreliable. After B:4 these catch techers of side they are designed to hit.

B4s and 44Bs
Easily avoidable. Not recommended unless you want to encourage them to tech or roll.

Conclusions
33B is guaranteed, easy and damaging, but to aim higher you have to apply 1B and 22_88{B}. Sometimes mix some B4s and 44Bs.

The rest

Apply 33B and 1Ks. They're fastest viable ground-hitting options since A+B have habit to mess things up. Encourage opponent to play dead if you want to hit some slower slams on them.

MOVES FROM NEUTRAL – OKIZEME APPLICATIONS:

Throws
Solid +16 situation. Both throws leave opponent to the same distance, but B+G set them head first (notable if you want lift them up with flapjacks).

Flapjacks
Gives delicious advantage after successful throw, but put you out of 3B range. Waste of momentum if done against downed opponent. No damage, no real advantage just a spin or in the best case, +14 frames by lifting them up. Sometimes might be useful to stop rollers, ie. after B+G. Best if you catch them standing, since head lift won't guarantee you throw-mid -mixup. Nice way to waste time if you aim for a time out victory.

1A-series
Good anti-rolling tool. Once you hit, they have hard time to avoid second swing. Somewhat unsafe, has problems to hit point-blank downed and pushes opponent away on hits melting down small advantage. Good combo-enders but poorly rewarding on roll-catching.

B-series
The most handy ones are {B} (+30 frames), B (+22) and B2A (+14). By mixing these 3, you can pressure downed foe, but use sparingly. Bs doesn't have side-roll catching properties, which limit its use quite even more. From {B} you have almost uninterruptible SRSH-mixup – transition takes 26 frames.

1B
Not that useful tech-trap anymore. It still has nice applications and good trapping when used point-blank. On connected hit mild advantage.

2Bs
2{B} (+25 frames) is not as advantageous as but it's faster and has small roll-catch to your right. Watch out for short range. Plain 2B (+19) is usable too. Because Bs and 2Bs won't do much damage, they rarely are worthy of being combo-enders. Throwing them out now and then in wake-ups won't hurt you though.

3{B} and 33{B}
Fast, average damage and decent frames (+26) on paper. Bread'n'butter okizeme-tools, nice against rollers to your left side. Always aim for 33{B}-version to get more damage. Troublesome if they managed to block this, but not catastrophic. Remember that you'll push foe quite far and you're put into SCH which sucks at wake-ups. Try get into SRSH where your SRSH B and K are hard to stop.

7_8_9B
Mediocre speed, damage and advantage (+22~+23). Sounds ridiculous to pull this on wake-ups, but has many assets: after many moves you can pressure them with 9B because of its long range. Even if you got blocked, they're put in FC and with only mild advantage. On hit, you won't get anything guaranteed but you will keep them close and yourself in normal state. In comparison with 6B, this is safer and more reliable way to continue your game after throw or mid-range knowdown. For fast solution, prefer 33{B}. Watch out for side-rollers, although this can beat them sometimes

B4 and B:4
Powerful but slow downward slam. Though this have small roll-catching, use this as a combo-ender since it gives great frames (+27) which is the best neutral advantage available.

22{B} and 88{B}
These brothers can launch on successful tech-trap, but finding good setups might be hard because usually they could be replaced with even better combo-ender, like 44B. 22_88{B}'s main use is roll-catching which they do more than well: good cover, good damage and great advantage. Suffers little from range and not-so-fast start-up.

44B-series
Well-telegraphed and therefore useless in situations where is not guaranteed. Monster on ground-hit, allows many dangerous but also risky follow-ups without chance to be interrupted. Use as much as you are ready to take risks. On block, you can make your way out of danger

66B
For high base or gauge damage, use this. For roll-catching, further okizeme or safeness, avoid this. Tracks fairly well but cannot hit rolling foe. I won't recommended this at any situation.

1K
Fastest ground-hitting move with small range, weak damage and decent advantage. Best used to cover both rolling sides, but if there's other options, forget this. Make sure to hit grounded one, because otherwise you will lose momentum.

2K-series
Showy and annoying stomps, put +2 to opponent's anger-meter and yields you from +6~+8 advantage on close. Tends to hit even better than in SC3 and gives somewhat decent damage but not preferable as a combo-ender or roll-catcher. Practically just a parlor-trick

3KKB
First K will reveal your intentions leaving you in great danger. Same as 1K but slower and less advantageous. In case that you manage to connect this on grounded opponent, keep up pressuring, the momentum is still there.

2A+B
Slow low with quite a long range. Has problems to hit enemy grounded on close. Great advantage on hit especially when ending up into SBH, but not enough to make it as monstrous as 44B. Too linear to applied as roll-catcher but might have some use to catch long-distance back-rollers. Use SBH B to make them stand and mix them down with SRSH-mixup.

66A+B
Same as 66B but a tid bit safer and damaging. However no roll-catching or tracking and even worse advantage (not negative though). Built-in TJ might avoid 2As or lows, but practically useless.

a+kA2:A
1A-look-a-like, but with problematic ground-hit: when opponent lies still won't hit (unless they're lying sideways)! Once they roll, this slash catch them with great advantage (+20) and decent damage. Covers both sides well and usable as a combo-ender after SBH B. On block somewhat unsafe, but gorgeous on standing hit – be sure to use this.

BT BB
First B doesn't hit grounded and while second does, opponent might have caught your idea. Hard to set up, but decent reward on hit. Small roll-catching abilities, but rather unsafe. Make sure to hit grounded, on hit against standing opponent leaves you -7.[/B]

BT 2K
Good frames on hit, whether on standing opponent or not. Very unsafe so don't be too careless. Catch nicely rollers but has limited range.

STANCE COMPARISON AND ANALYSIS:

Siegfried's stance-game is vital but in the same time quite inadequate in wake-ups. This next section breaks down whole stance-game into separate stances.

SBH
The biggest drawback in this stance is its speed. Even the damage-output won't compensate as your fastest ground-hitting option is SBH B. Luckily you have SBH K, a fast tech-trap, but you'll end up in bad situation if it only pushes air or smashes against block. Base Hold is still excellent after 44{B} and somewhat fine after {B} and 2[A+B]. Ground-hitters are safe enough but only SBH A+B covers both side-rolling directions. Advantage is mediocre

Pros: Damage, safeness, advantage on hit
Cons: Slow, somewhat weak to rolls

SCH
{B}Chief Hold suffers most of the lack of pressure tools. With two highs and mids, you're left without lows. The mids would be well enough if they leads in to good advantage or damage but rewards on hit are poor. In addition to that, opponent can roll to theirs heart content and you have no real ways to force them up. In short, SCH has the safest and fastest moves, but lacks okizeme capacity.

Pros: Safeness, advantage on hit
Cons: No lows, only two mids, totally vulnerable to rollers moving to Sieg's right

SRSH
On standing state, SRSH is most offensive stance thanks to its 50-50-mix-up, but like in SCH, you're no able to force opponent to take it if they know to tech and roll to your right. In addition to this, SRSH A+B is quite slow and the 50-50 is quite unsafe.

Pros: Powerful mix-up, fast and damaging against standing opponent, built-in forward dash
Cons: Unsafe, only one slow ground-hitter, weak against rolls to your right, weak advantage on hit

SSH
This stance has the best options to force opponent to stand and block. SSH A is fast, covers things quite well and has option to SRSH. Along with that, SSH B and SSH A+B are good alternatives. All SSH-moves are somewhat safe and fast but they won't make Siegfried top-tier. On ground hit, advantages varies from mediocre to great. Too bad Siegfried lacks ground-hitting moves to end up in SSH

Pros: Covers rollers, ground-hitting lows, fast, somewhat safe
Cons: Built-in backstep, limited ways to get into this stance

Lastly, to keep up momentum you have to be highly creative. Many times it just won't be enough. Canceling into standing state or FC might be good to keep your stance okizeme effective, because there's no things to abuse mindlessly. Being more in SSH helps, but transitions tends to draw you away from opponent. Just make sure to have enough advantage, short distance and/or well-conditioned victim.

LAST THOUGHTS AND CREDIT

I hope that this gives new insights into Siegfried gameplay, since I wasted more like 30 hours on this. The study won't probably change your style, but it definitely gave me some fresh ideas to approach knockdows. It also clarified some rumours about not-so-well-known moves. Happy hunting

Thanks Sacharja and Twisted Jester for framedata.
 

Mandritti

[09] Warrior
If you send me the original, I could run a Python script on it to clean out all the [ B] tags for {B}s. Some are still raping the post.
This is a fantastic project. Thanks to Sacharja, TwistedJester, and sdnkorento.
 

Bastet

[12] Conqueror
No [ B ]s? Jeez, I was getting used to those... Why, why, why? T.T So, we'll use {} only for B??? Can I not use that? :>
Anyway awesome work... Some people have so much patience, congrats!

Hey what about this one?
What's the move? (It's in the conclusion section)
"22_88
Another fast move that cannot be rolled easily. It's not blockable but opponent can avoid these by teching. Sometimes they catch techers but it's very very unreliable. After B:4 these catch techers of side they are designed to hit."

Stepping? Plz, tell me if I'm wrong :/
 

Slayer_X64

Siegfried SA Moderator
No [ B ]s? Jeez, I was getting used to those... Why, why, why? T.T So, we'll use {} only for B??? Can I not use that? :>
Anyway awesome work... Some people have so much patience, congrats!

Hey what about this one?
What's the move? (It's in the conclusion section)
"22_88
Another fast move that cannot be rolled easily. It's not blockable but opponent can avoid these by teching. Sometimes they catch techers but it's very very unreliable. After B:4 these catch techers of side they are designed to hit."

Stepping? Plz, tell me if I'm wrong :/
the move is likely 22_88{B}

as for the whole [ B ] thing, i just use {} for all hold inputs too keep things consistent, but really i should be typing them like this:

[plain][B][/plain]

however im too lazy to do that so i adapted the use of the {} brackets. its kinda sloppy notation wise, but people still understand it and it gets the job done. or i can write it as :bh: which comes out like this: :(B):

but since i write so much on here i prefer to get the information up as quickly as possible. whatever you do is simply your personal preference ^-^
 

Synraii

[14] Master
Screw your unconventional brackets Slayer! () All the way!
I didn't know about :B: though, I'll use that more often I think. Now I have an excuse to re-write my guide! ^^
Btw, if I don't update the anti Siegfried guide soon, somebody bitchslap me...
 

Mandritti

[09] Warrior
There will be no script to fix the original post from me. I saw the input, it's not what I expected, and it is not solvable algorithmically. There might be some program that could deduce the syntax of an input notation sentence, but if there is even one deviation coming in as a typo from sdnkorento, the code wouldn't work. EDIT: I mean, notation might be capturable, but notation + human style variance is not something I can capture.

This contradicts what I told Slayer earlier on. I eyeballed the problem, but I was mistaken. Sorry guys.
I do still have interest in writing a generic "Fix ur [B]s" script, that users could have proofread their posts, but I doubt that would catch since it does little more work than Ctrl-F or the {} habit anyway.
[dejection]
 

Slayer_X64

Siegfried SA Moderator
hey, its alright Mandritti, at least u tried ^-^ thx for your efforts man. as for the [B]'s that are still currently raping this post, i'll just go through and root the rest out manually lol.

EDIT: all done! i think that was the last of them. if any1 catches something i missed, please dont hesitate to mention it!
 

Slayer_X64

Siegfried SA Moderator
SRSH Wake-up Study:

its not yet complete, but i figured i'd throw up here what i have so far...i think this cover's most of sieg's main KND's...

Setup: 3{B} SCH K ~ 6B+K SRSH
Alternative: 3{B} SCH K ~ 4B+K SSH
K_B: uninterruptable
A+B: interruptable
evaded by: left step
notes: can cover step weakness with a slightly delayed SRSH K or A+B. once opponent begins to step this, avoid using this set-up. please note that 3{B} SCH K ~ SCH B is a forced block. the alternative mixup is a bit less weak to step and a bit safer, but your damage options are also reduced.

Setup: NH WR B SCH ~ 6B+K SRSH
Alternative: NH WR B SCH ~ 6B+K SRSH ~ 4B+K SSH
K_B: tech trap
A+B: uninterruptable
evaded by: tech right
notes: fairly strong mixup if not abused often. the alternative mixup instantaneously spaces the opponent to tip so long as they dont tech forwards, SSH A+B being your respacing tool of they do, with SSH A being uninterruptable and killing all attempts at stepping. SRSH A+B and SSH B hit sleepers. SSH A will catch rolling.

Setup: 3A ~ FULLRUN 6B+K SRSH
K_B: uninterruptable
A+B: uninterruptable
evaded by: K_B is unevadable if the opponent stands. A+B can be stepped left.

Setup: 44B ~ 6B+K SRSH
Alternative: 44B ~ SBH B
K_B: uninterruptable
A+B: uninterruptable
evaded by: only B can be evaded. tech to either side.

Setup: 6B ~ FULLRUN 6B+K SRSH
K_B: uninterruptable
A+B: uninterruptable
evaded by: K_B is unevadable if the opponent stands. A+B can be stepped left.

Setup: SRSH A+B ~ 6B+K SRSH
K_B: N/A
A+B: uninterruptable
evaded by: the move cannot be evaded and is a forced block to all sides. however, it will whiff if the opponent simply stands and does nothing.

Setup: 1AA ~ FULLRUN 6B+K SRSH
K_B: uninterruptable
A+B: interruptable
evaded by: unevadable/left tech*
notes: timing is extremely strict. if FULLRUN is cancelled to early, the mixup is left techable. if FULLRUN is cancelled too late, the mixup collides with launchers.

Setup: CH a+ka2A ~ 6B+K SRSH
K_B: uninterruptable
A+B: uninterruptable
evaded by: impossible to evade

Setup: 88{B} SRSH B ~ 6B+K SRSH
K_B: uninterruptable
A+B: uninterruptable
evaded by: K is unevadable. B can be evaded through backwards tech. A+B can be evaded through left tech left step.

Setup: SBH A+B ~ FULLRUN 6B+K SRSH
K_B: uninterruptable
A+B: uninterruptable
evaded by: K_B is unevadable if the opponent stands. A+B can be stepped left.

Setup: iagA(air juggle) ~ 6B+K SRSH
Alternative: 3{B} SCH K ~ 4B+K SSH
K_B: uninterruptable
A+B: interruptable
evaded by: left step(requires extremely strict timing. A+B cannot be evaded.

Setup: CH 4K ~ 6B+K SRSH
K_B: uninterruptable
A+B: uninterruptable
evaded by: only A+B is evadable. step left.

Setup: 22{B} SSH ~ 6B+K SRSH
K_B: uninterruptable
A+B: interruptable (instant stand only)
evaded by: only A+B is evadable. 8wayrun left.

Setup: 88{B} SRSH {K} ~ SRSH
K_B: uninterruptable
A+B: uninterruptable
evaded by: to evade K_B, AC back and to the left. to evade A+B, AC back and to the right.
notes: B will whiff frequently if the opponent chooses to AC to the left(siegs right) and can sometimes even whiff against a regular standing opponent. this can be solved by slightly delaying the B. Because of the way 88B works, siegfried can sometimes end up in BT position.
 

Jink

[10] Knight
Haha, nice Slay!! This is outstandingly organized. When I go for my RSH'A+B vice to CF & get interrupted from some wake ups, I change RSH'A+B for RSH'4B+K to doge & punish my rival's whiffed wake up with SSH'K if it the wake up was short, SSH'A+B if its long but slow wake up, or B if possible by long recovering wake up. RSH'4B+K has the longest back step roulette. Also it works for me because I'm always aiming my RSH'A+B at tip range for everything.
 

Slayer_X64

Siegfried SA Moderator
Haha, nice Slay!! This is outstandingly organized. When I go for my RSH'A+B vice to CF & get interrupted from some wake ups, I change RSH'A+B for RSH'4B+K to doge & punish my rival's whiffed wake up with SSH'K if it the wake up was short, SSH'A+B if its long but slow wake up, or B if possible by long recovering wake up. RSH'4B+K has the longest back step roulette. Also it works for me because I'm always aiming my RSH'A+B at tip range for everything.
i'll have to add that into the mix later then lol
 

Slayer_X64

Siegfried SA Moderator
made some minor corrections to sdnkorento's data, with that all done, its time to continue working out any other oki options for his stances.