Siegfried SCV Non-Gameplay Related Discussion
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Windstar
[13] Hero
So I'm not sure where to put this, but since Siegfried is doing it, might as well put it here...
Siegfired is apparently using the new GI/Just Block mechanic in this video (3:40). Can't see it too clearly, but you can see that he gains a bit of meter for pulling it off. The timing looks a bit weird, it appears he's guarding some time before Patroklos' attack. Doesn't look like he's in a GI-parry animation, either. Another thing to note is that he returns to a normal stance immediately after the hit.
Siegfired is apparently using the new GI/Just Block mechanic in this video (3:40). Can't see it too clearly, but you can see that he gains a bit of meter for pulling it off. The timing looks a bit weird, it appears he's guarding some time before Patroklos' attack. Doesn't look like he's in a GI-parry animation, either. Another thing to note is that he returns to a normal stance immediately after the hit.
Heaton
A Soul in the Purgatory
Tago's head obscures too much of it, I think, to see what's really going on. Might just be the new animation for 6G.
sephalump
Video games kill people
I will drop everyone else as my second if you guys think(like have faith in) Siegfried having more block stun/recoil animations. I don't even want the safety, I just want him to seem like he has some solid strength behind that weapon. I personally think his new design would lend well to more forceful stuff.
Heaton
A Soul in the Purgatory
The problem with that is if hefty moves like 3A, 33A, 3B, 6B, etc; were absolutely safe - as in, not covered by stance transitions or anything like that, I fear that he might become too easy of a character, and people would flock to him and only use a super-safe playstyle with him. While that might sound a bit elitist, I really don't want Siegfried to have the kind of reputation Amy does for being "such an easy, safe, strong, super scrubby character." I feel that, while Amy is an excellent character, there's a lot to her that most people don't quite understand, and write her off as someone that anyone can pick up and play, which is definitely not the case at all.
The thing about SC4 Siegfried that I like is that there are so many different ways to play him. I think that because of his relative unsafety, we've all found different ways around that to make him an effective character. On one hand, I don't want Siegfried to seem like, or even actually become, a bland, flowchart type of character. On the other hand, more people playing Siegfried is a good thing...I'm a bit torn.
Note that, what I am absolutely NOT saying is that Amy is a character anyone can pick up and win with, or that only people of a high enough skill level are allowed to play Siegfried. It's kind of hard to say what I mean without having that undertone, and I just want to set it straight that what I mean is that I want Siegfried to keep his current reputation.
The thing about SC4 Siegfried that I like is that there are so many different ways to play him. I think that because of his relative unsafety, we've all found different ways around that to make him an effective character. On one hand, I don't want Siegfried to seem like, or even actually become, a bland, flowchart type of character. On the other hand, more people playing Siegfried is a good thing...I'm a bit torn.
Note that, what I am absolutely NOT saying is that Amy is a character anyone can pick up and win with, or that only people of a high enough skill level are allowed to play Siegfried. It's kind of hard to say what I mean without having that undertone, and I just want to set it straight that what I mean is that I want Siegfried to keep his current reputation.
I've always said unsafe character users are different from safe players - let me explain:
The reason I think we all have different styles is because Sieg has the versatility to support it, but as players, we are generally ballsier than the equivalent Amy or Lizard player, meaning we are not afraid to take huge risks and as such are far less predictable due to the mindset of the players. It's why it's a minority of players capable of playing him well - the same goes for taki, maxi, NM and to an extent Zas players.
I'd welcome a buff to his 50:50's but fuck safety - that's not our style. Giving Sieg safety is an insult to Sieg players IMHO.
The great thing about Sieg is you always need a little bit of luck, but when it works out, it looks SO good - that's the joy of playing him, I hope it doesn't change.
The reason I think we all have different styles is because Sieg has the versatility to support it, but as players, we are generally ballsier than the equivalent Amy or Lizard player, meaning we are not afraid to take huge risks and as such are far less predictable due to the mindset of the players. It's why it's a minority of players capable of playing him well - the same goes for taki, maxi, NM and to an extent Zas players.
I'd welcome a buff to his 50:50's but fuck safety - that's not our style. Giving Sieg safety is an insult to Sieg players IMHO.
The great thing about Sieg is you always need a little bit of luck, but when it works out, it looks SO good - that's the joy of playing him, I hope it doesn't change.
RT0wn
[10] Knight
I think that it's best for characters to have the ability to play both safe and unsafe. I'd like to see Sieg in SCV be a bit more versatile, not just stance roulette gambling.
RT0wn
[10] Knight
All I have to say for your dream of short-shorts Sieg is... CAS...
Though I may have to pick up those briefs.
Though I may have to pick up those briefs.
IdleMind
BANNED FOREVER
This accurately sums up my feelings on the matter:
-Idle
-Idle
sephalump
Video games kill people
Wow this is a lot of discussion for a half serious post O_o. I just meant I want him to affirm his manlyness by making the opponent stagger and get thrown around when he whacks them with that big sword.
...Wow. I just outgayed everyone on this site. While I'm at it, Synraii I think you have a great ass. I've never seen it, but I can tell.
Uh on topic now. Moving train of thought from Synraii's ass: don't want Safety tbh. I think he should have the capability of being Safefried(like nightmare, a few solid pokes with low risk low reward, but you could still pressure guage with stuff like b6, b*4 on wake up, 9B) but yeah his high rewards should be risky.
This is just random spit balling and I've taken triple a dose of my sleeping medicine to get my sleep cycle back to normal. I personally wouldn't mind seeing 3KKB go just because I think it looks ridiculous especially with his new outfit. Give 4BBB better range/slightly better frames and give a Just that gives a stun on CH(not sure how big a combo off it, its a triple JF but at the same time Siegfried does such good damage on CH and a stun giving him one could be a little bit of a big deal) and a GB on block that gives minor advantage(+2?)? It would look pretty beast for him to headbutt Astaroth's(this is just my personal visual) axe and the 7 foot tall golemn staggers into a crouch block. Plus I personally think if the first is -8(can't really step), -10 on second, and last hit is like -14 without jf and someone can consistantly hit the GB it could really help his pressure game.
Don't take this too seriously I suck with Siegfried I just spam pokes with some guage damage and try to sniff out CH set ups.
...Wow. I just outgayed everyone on this site. While I'm at it, Synraii I think you have a great ass. I've never seen it, but I can tell.
Uh on topic now. Moving train of thought from Synraii's ass: don't want Safety tbh. I think he should have the capability of being Safefried(like nightmare, a few solid pokes with low risk low reward, but you could still pressure guage with stuff like b6, b*4 on wake up, 9B) but yeah his high rewards should be risky.
This is just random spit balling and I've taken triple a dose of my sleeping medicine to get my sleep cycle back to normal. I personally wouldn't mind seeing 3KKB go just because I think it looks ridiculous especially with his new outfit. Give 4BBB better range/slightly better frames and give a Just that gives a stun on CH(not sure how big a combo off it, its a triple JF but at the same time Siegfried does such good damage on CH and a stun giving him one could be a little bit of a big deal) and a GB on block that gives minor advantage(+2?)? It would look pretty beast for him to headbutt Astaroth's(this is just my personal visual) axe and the 7 foot tall golemn staggers into a crouch block. Plus I personally think if the first is -8(can't really step), -10 on second, and last hit is like -14 without jf and someone can consistantly hit the GB it could really help his pressure game.
Don't take this too seriously I suck with Siegfried I just spam pokes with some guage damage and try to sniff out CH set ups.
Leinahtan
[10] Knight
I like playing Sieg for his 4 locking stances, and I think those 4 stances should be improved upon. Each stance should have more moves in general.
Specifically coming to mind:
1. Chief Hold - You should be able to run forward again while in this stance as in previous SC's
2. Base Hold - You should be able to switch to this stance while Crouching or While rising - its a crouch stance... silly to just stand up to go back down again.
3. Forward Hold - Make that A useful somehow from this stance. Its a piece of crap.
Specifically coming to mind:
1. Chief Hold - You should be able to run forward again while in this stance as in previous SC's
2. Base Hold - You should be able to switch to this stance while Crouching or While rising - its a crouch stance... silly to just stand up to go back down again.
3. Forward Hold - Make that A useful somehow from this stance. Its a piece of crap.
Heaton
A Soul in the Purgatory
lol, Maxifried.
Yeah I totally get what you're saying. I just find it hard to not equate blockstun with safety. Don't want too much and end up stupidly powerful, but don't want too little and end up like Zas.
Jink
[10] Knight
Siegfried is not about roulette. Stance Roulette is just another 50/50 way of serving your rival or getting served by your rival.
Siegfried's unsafe game is key to lure-in mistakes from rivals who get overconfident, which happens quite often. Siegfried tends to be underrated by most rivals even by Siegfried players themselves (Not a naming issue, ok? Just my opinion).
Siegfried can handle closed combat just as even-less than the rest of the cast. But at zoning & range games, he's only rivaled by a few characters. Tip range + spacing games defeats Siegfried's unsafe factor, making it quite safe to poke & remaining outside of rivals' punishing range while keeping rival at Siegfired's punishing range, with consistency.
Everything that Siegfried may seem to lack on some aspects, its compensated by his Ring Out & Wall Slap potentials.
Not many knows this, but Siegfried's slow back dash is ironically quite useful to lure-in rivals to mistake within Siegfried's punishing range. Go figure that one out.
With Siegfried is quite easy to consistently punish all characters & regain poking + zoning advantage.
Gtg, more later..
Siegfried's unsafe game is key to lure-in mistakes from rivals who get overconfident, which happens quite often. Siegfried tends to be underrated by most rivals even by Siegfried players themselves (Not a naming issue, ok? Just my opinion).
Siegfried can handle closed combat just as even-less than the rest of the cast. But at zoning & range games, he's only rivaled by a few characters. Tip range + spacing games defeats Siegfried's unsafe factor, making it quite safe to poke & remaining outside of rivals' punishing range while keeping rival at Siegfired's punishing range, with consistency.
Everything that Siegfried may seem to lack on some aspects, its compensated by his Ring Out & Wall Slap potentials.
Not many knows this, but Siegfried's slow back dash is ironically quite useful to lure-in rivals to mistake within Siegfried's punishing range. Go figure that one out.
With Siegfried is quite easy to consistently punish all characters & regain poking + zoning advantage.
Gtg, more later..
RT0wn
[10] Knight
I suppose that was a bad comment to make. To correct myself - I have the most success playing Sieg with stance roulette tactics. That being said, I feel like I probably haven't put in enough time as Siegfried (or the game itself) to play the delicate balancing game between lures and ranged pokes you've explained. Though I believe you're correct; that's definitely the kind of game a master Siegfried plays.
But, it seems like the unsafe lure is a meta tactic. How essential is it, do you think, to Siegfried's game? For instance, if he was safer in SCV (or any installment, this is purely hypothetical), do you think that his style would change that much? Or is this a minor aspect of Sieg theory?
Or am I just confusing myself and everyone around me.lols.
Jink
[10] Knight
No, it wasn't a bad comment to make. Everyone can play as they see fit as their current competition level requires from them.
Siefried's 22_88A (Grd -18) can be punished by launchers, or by Sophy's AS'B for example. But, if Siegfried gets the Sophy to guard 22_88A at its collision's tip range & the Sophy reacts with AS'B, it whiffs & Siegfried gets enough frames to punish Sophy's punish attempt with 1B. Siegfried's 22_88A has good range (tho a little shorter than sword polygons) & good push+back. 22_88A Being Grd-18 may make it meaningless if used close to rival, but useful when used at its tip range. Lets say, what if the rival tries to counter Siegfried's 22_88A spacing game with a longer but slower move. Depending on how far your rival ends after guarding 22_88A, chances are they'll use a i19 or slower move to reach Siegfried (if they are that offensive). That for Siegfried = a JI or GI opportunity out of a known punishable move (that many Sigs don't use just because frames said-so).
This is how I use Siegfried's unsafeness to lure-in rival. 22_88A, an unsafe move, becomes safe at tip range. Frame data is not the end of the road for me, never was.
But remember, this is still subjective to rival's character speed+range game.
I'm no master. I just keep Siegfried out of guarantee punishable range & bad situations. When I play, the situation I less want to be in, is in my rival's face. I rather have them chasing me & do the losing part for me. But that's subjective to rival's character as well.
Making Siegfried safer (than SC4 Sig) would kill all this fun I have when playing.
Siefried's 22_88A (Grd -18) can be punished by launchers, or by Sophy's AS'B for example. But, if Siegfried gets the Sophy to guard 22_88A at its collision's tip range & the Sophy reacts with AS'B, it whiffs & Siegfried gets enough frames to punish Sophy's punish attempt with 1B. Siegfried's 22_88A has good range (tho a little shorter than sword polygons) & good push+back. 22_88A Being Grd-18 may make it meaningless if used close to rival, but useful when used at its tip range. Lets say, what if the rival tries to counter Siegfried's 22_88A spacing game with a longer but slower move. Depending on how far your rival ends after guarding 22_88A, chances are they'll use a i19 or slower move to reach Siegfried (if they are that offensive). That for Siegfried = a JI or GI opportunity out of a known punishable move (that many Sigs don't use just because frames said-so).
This is how I use Siegfried's unsafeness to lure-in rival. 22_88A, an unsafe move, becomes safe at tip range. Frame data is not the end of the road for me, never was.
But remember, this is still subjective to rival's character speed+range game.
I'm no master. I just keep Siegfried out of guarantee punishable range & bad situations. When I play, the situation I less want to be in, is in my rival's face. I rather have them chasing me & do the losing part for me. But that's subjective to rival's character as well.
Making Siegfried safer (than SC4 Sig) would kill all this fun I have when playing.
Slayer_X64
Siegfried SA Moderator
er...the frame data can be decieving at some times as well. many of siegfrieds attacks are also quite literally alot safer at tip range. however, range values are not displayed on the wiki for the sake of simplicity. this is something i do plan to add in the future under notes. some examples of this would be:
A - this is i17 at absolute in ur face range. the most practical value is i18.
3A - this is -14 at tip range. at close to mid range, its -15.
A+KAA - this can be up to +2 on grd at tip range. for practical situations however, the move is marked as ±0 since landing tip range is very situational.
i like 22_88A, it has some really great range that can help kill spacing vs some characters, like raph, and on top of that its a long range TCing mid.
A - this is i17 at absolute in ur face range. the most practical value is i18.
3A - this is -14 at tip range. at close to mid range, its -15.
A+KAA - this can be up to +2 on grd at tip range. for practical situations however, the move is marked as ±0 since landing tip range is very situational.
i like 22_88A, it has some really great range that can help kill spacing vs some characters, like raph, and on top of that its a long range TCing mid.
Mastery of Siegfried has always been mastery of advantage through range THEN advantage through frames - it's having a balance between the two that makes a mastery of Siegfried. No offence, but I hope you don't make such notes as it's not something I believe can be understood through writing - we as players just know it. It's why we're special =3
Slayer_X64
Siegfried SA Moderator
lol well i'll do it someday, its not high on my priorities right now so much as finishing the rest of the stuff for siegfried is. imo, even if the information is there, you cant really learn any character through just reading. the information is merely there to act as a guide, a tool used to reinforce and accelerate knowledge for both siegfried players and players who struggle with anti siegfried. plus how would any of us get any better if no1 ever took the time to try and find crazy new stuff right? we'd all might still be BBB and 3{B} SCH B noobs in that case XD(jk everybody knows thats what PRO siegfrieds are made of! >_>)
as for mastering sieg, i think it requires somewhat the mindset of a chess player. theoretical knowledge and practical execution; stuff like punishment, combo's, jf's, ect are really just means to an end. whether this be by spacing games, stance roulette and rush down, SG pressure, ect is really dependent on both the style of the siegfried player, his/her opponent and the current situation the player is confronted with at that time. what is your ability to react and deal with certain situations using only a limited set of tools? these are just some of the things a sieg player has to think about at a place or time. im no master for certain, but it all boils down to: what are all the things my opponent could possibly do in this situation? how can i deal with these options? how can i force them to do what i want them to do? if you can answer these questions, then with strong theoretical and practical knowledge to reinforce your answers, you can effectively find way's to bait your opponent for CH and punishment. really i suppose the same could be said about almost any character.
somethin that i like about siegfried though: CH really kicks some ass! lol
so really IMHO siegfried = bold and daring + cold and calculating
so really we're just informing players of tools that they already had in the beginning, but just didnt know about lol.
as for mastering sieg, i think it requires somewhat the mindset of a chess player. theoretical knowledge and practical execution; stuff like punishment, combo's, jf's, ect are really just means to an end. whether this be by spacing games, stance roulette and rush down, SG pressure, ect is really dependent on both the style of the siegfried player, his/her opponent and the current situation the player is confronted with at that time. what is your ability to react and deal with certain situations using only a limited set of tools? these are just some of the things a sieg player has to think about at a place or time. im no master for certain, but it all boils down to: what are all the things my opponent could possibly do in this situation? how can i deal with these options? how can i force them to do what i want them to do? if you can answer these questions, then with strong theoretical and practical knowledge to reinforce your answers, you can effectively find way's to bait your opponent for CH and punishment. really i suppose the same could be said about almost any character.
somethin that i like about siegfried though: CH really kicks some ass! lol
so really IMHO siegfried = bold and daring + cold and calculating
so really we're just informing players of tools that they already had in the beginning, but just didnt know about lol.
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