So how do you beat Vader?

smilingsaint said:
suirad, while not disputing the frame data on the attacks you listed, do you feel that his attacks are anything but impossibly slow in practical terms?
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His attacks are slow I agree, although 1BA is surprisingly hard to step and mid and safe if you cancel and other good things plus its actually really fast for a mid. You have to use the ones that are not horribly slow most of the time, but it can be done. i18 is certainly a viable speed at advantage.

smilingsaint said:
i am not asking to be argumentative but am really very curious about your opinion on the subject. would you argue that he has any useful lows?
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not really, maybe 4B+K but its ok because his throws are good.

smilingsaint said:
i would even argue that his force counters are of dubious value since they consume such an absurd amount of his force gauge.
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I'm not the biggest fan, especially since his post-GI situation is pretty good, but nearly guaranteed damage off GI is good too...

I'm a bit confused about what was said regarding throws so I wont say anything about it.

smilingsaint said:
using the force cannon against people getting up rather trying to force grab them instead has certainly proven largely fruitless against countless online opponents.
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You dont need it though because vader's grab/mid mix-up is relatively strong. Still if you use the cannon on the right wakes it's nigh unsteppable and you can always cancel if they stay grounded, sometimes still getting oki.

smilingsaint said:
i really think the whole force gauge thing should be completely eliminated as a superfluous mechanic that unnecessarily weakens already weak characters
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They would need to change some move properties too then because vader could infinite with no force requirements.

smilingsaint said:
all of that said, if you know of better way to play him i would love to hear your opinion and learn.
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Vader has good poking range and his faster ones are still difficult to react. He gets really good frames on block with many attacks which lead to opportunities to 1BA interrupt, step, backstep on block, (maybe GI). There's good combo damage to be had off of 3B+K which is reasonably quick. If you tap into his force cancels he gets some more things like safety on 6BbG, parity on 44B(already a decent speed launcher) and a couple nice frametraps on WS aG and 66bG. So the idea is poke a lot from mid range and if you get a knockdown or opponent closes distance do grab/mid. It works ok from my experience.

I wasn't really trying to make a case for vader, I just felt there were some in accuracies in what was stated so I was giving my end.
 
his force counters if your refering to his auto GI's are uber in my opinion, they have gotten me out a lot of bad situations where i was able to change the flow of the game with them.

vader is generally weaker to one side more than being completely linear. I forget the side but ill post up when i remember

i have to disagree with the good soul damage statement but hey i just probably dont use the moves enough where he goes decent damage to it.

he has an almost invisible low, its either 1B+K or 4B+K i cant remeber off the top of my head lol. but its really his only good low that i actually use as so far i dont think anyone has actually ever blocked it, tho ive definately missed with it on more than one occasion not judging the distance properly lol.

Im waiting for my vids to be posted of the tournament i just went to, where i used vader, I didnt win overall but i did fairly well (got knocked out near the end of the tourney, last round 1 game and 2 rounds each with hardly no health left and i got rung out .. ) but I believe that i proved that vader is not shit by any means which was my reason for using him and i just think he is lots of fun to use. im hoping to post them soon so I can see how i can improve and people can give me ideas that i may not of thought of ^^ ill post in the section that has tho ^^
 
His auto gis r his best weapon and probably one of the best in the game.

His lows are all crappy, 4B+K is worthless but is indeed invissible :P

His best low is probably 11K as i said before
 
that lame low where he moves back to do it i think its 1a is awsome if your against a wall rofl....

yups to the GI's ^^
 
1A isn't that bad. . .it randomly beats out moves up close and still puts him int FC for the A+B if he needs it.
 
his 2A is actually pretty good for opening up the opponent and most dont see it coming. About the side stepping his UB if you play a smart player they will just cancel it as soon as they figure out your going to side step and catch you off guard. His 6bb is pretty quick to and if you are crouching your going to get hurt. His UB cancels are crazy too and will get him in close or some good combo set ups.
 
Another thread that I'm un-deleting. This thread has useful info for anti Vader discussion. No point in it being deleted.

I'm sure this has been mentioned here but sidestepping is Vader's weakness. Vader has to pretty much guess which direction you're going to step and then use the appropriate move that catches that way, which most moves are pretty slow. Because pretty much every move he has can be stepped one way or another at a certain point (even 3A), with the exception of FC 2A.

I've also noticed a lot of Vaders are predictable with their Force GI, so be sure to bait them out.

The final thing is when fighting Vaders offline, be sure to punish them if they spam 1BA. It's hard to online, but offline they shouldn't be getting away with it.
 
OOF ..its only my 2nd day here...PLEASE BARE WITH ME!!!!


and actually i closed this thread mainly because there is a lot of posts that just don't belong..so i wanted to delete it and then fix some of the "spam" type posts and clean it up..or posts that aren't doing any good here, i guess i didn't have to go to that extent... but your making me feel like i'm being forced to know how to walk on my hands chewing bubble gum and spinning around in circles all at the same time while making OOFMATIC happy!!.. luckily that's NOT in my job description, hehe.. though, i am still in the learning stages of walking here..if you wish to help me with some words of the wise that would be great..just please don't come up behind me and re-open a thread i wish to work on for the community...remember..im still new at this:) ...and beside wouldn't this whole thread be better belonging in a character match up/vs thread?? ..other than seeing posts that speak nothing of beating Vader, but just moves that he has and has nothing to do with beating him? ..other than that i see this being extremely cluttered with many things to come.
 
I already sent you a PM a while ago, JustKill.

Only real SPAM should be deleted. A lot of what you deleted was useful info. Deleting threads should only be a last resort. Before that you should merge if possible.

Don't get the wrong idea, I'm not trying to make you feel bad, I just disagree with some of your modding decisions and am trying show you a better option then just flat out closing/deleting. Anyways, lets discuss this over PM from now on, since it's getting this thread off topic.
 
Interesting observation about knowing which way to catch opponents...


Though, if you are playing against a character you now what side is their general weaker side..that player will be stepping/walking more in that direction to cover base of their weakness, so in doing so, Vader can do in return with things like 4a(stepping right)/11_77a,b(side walking left or right) to catch characters with weaker left stepping(to their right and Vader's left), and 6a to catch right stepping...but luckily these things have good range to get gain access, but your right that he does have to guess which direction they move in..but , that's something a good portion of characters have as general flaws..

1b~a yeah..duck and punish that ish!! that is all, and yeah about force GI, its something that's sometimes unavoidable for him to gain control of the match offensively, or in his favor for ring out potential/mix-ups, keep an eye for close quarter area's where this can happen to avoid it...especially when your back is facing the edge of the ring.
 
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