Soulcalibur: Balanced or Not?

Cahin

Cahin

[08] Mercenary
I posted this in another forum but thought it was in the wrong forum so I'm re-posting it here. Feel free to comment :D​

I'm new to the forums but I think that it's best to introduce yourself in new places. I'm DW1. No, that's not some secret code made by the CIA or ham demons, and I have a question for you as a SC player: How balanced is Soulcalibur?​

In all my years of playing fighting games, I would like to say that I have a lot of experience in this field. Something that bothers me a lot though is when you play a game and there's a list of really annoying, cheap, overpowered characters that just seem to kill everyone. This problem is pretty prevalent in the recent game MvC3 (Not to be confused with Ultimate MvC3, which looks friggin awesome.) In MvC3, tournament play was dominated by a list of metagame characters. Basically if you didn't play them you got massacred, and while MvC3 was a fun game, the amount of imbalance in the roster stifled creativity. I would've loved to have played characters like Arthur, or even C.Viper because they're really fun characters. However, if you were to main them in a tourney or even just play them against a friend who's decent with one of the meta characters, your butt is grass and they're the lawnmower.​

It's always been my philosophy that where as all characters should have their own tricks and gimmicks, the true test of how good your game is is shown through tournament play. If players only use one of two characters and that's it, then your game, to me, isn't that great. I should though get back on track because my point is that Soulcalibur for the most part, has been a very balanced game. Granted that 4 sucked because of Yoda. ( OK to clarify, it sucked to me. Meaning this is just MY opinion.) Look me in the eye and tell me you didn't wanna reach through the screen and ring someone's neck who played Yoda online. He's a BEYOND cheap character. Now I'm not going say 4 was a bad game. It brought a complex, and highly inventive system to the Soul series that helped improve in some ways. I just disliked it cause of that little green troll and the fact that the speed was slow compared to my beloved SC2 (LONG LIVE NECRID.)​
I believe compared to the dozens of fighting games in the world, that Soulcalibur consistently puts out a balanced system and has some of the coolest mechanics I've seen (I'm still jazzed about Le Bello's finisher. "Please listen to my tale."). Plus, no other game in the world has, in my opinion, more hype about it than good ol' SC when it releases. While I may have had a falling out with 4, I've seen SC5 and have never been more excited. I'm loving all the characters. The speed of the game seems way more improved (reminiscent of the SC2 speed and pace.) The characters all have some of the most cool and iconic costumes I've seen to date. (Nightamare's costume is so SC2-ish it makes me weep on the inside.) and above all of this, the guest character couldn't be better. To answer my question, I believe that SC can boast one of the most balanced and awesome rosters ever. I believe that this game is great and with the release of 5 is going to be even greater. (permitted that they announce Yoshimitsu soon...AM I RIGHT?!) Hopefully they'll continue this trend and make these games better and better.​

Oh, and quick note. If you want proof that SC has a fairly balanced roster, Go ask 20 or so SC fans what the cheapest character in the game is and I bet dollars to donuts that the answer won't be consistently the same. I believe more or less the reason for this is because everyone has had a bad experience with a single character many times and eventually grew to just call said character cheap/overpowered. Like for me, I HATE Algol and Yoda, but that's just me. (Yoda is kinda a shared hatred though because of the lack of being able to throw the little monster. Plus I believe that 4 probably had the most imbalanced roster to date in the soul series. Like I said before though, these are just my opinion.)​
 
I intend to avoid this topic like the plague (as this has the potential to devolve into pointless flaming, and tier debates among people who have no business discussing them); but I have to cite this logical fallacy:

DW1 said:
Oh, and quick note. If you want proof that SC has a fairly balanced roster, Go ask 20 or so SC fans what the cheapest character in the game is and I bet dollars to donuts that the answer won't be consistently the same. I believe more or less the reason for this is because everyone has had a bad experience with a single character many times and eventually grew to just call said character cheap/overpowered.
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It doesn't matter what 20 random SC fans think about balance. It matters what high level players think about it, because that's where the game tops out. The imbalance of less skilled players is an illusion, proven by better players who can work past it.
 
Get ready to pinch yourself - I am in full agreement with Idle here:
The only real balance issues were Hilde, who was subsequently banned and SCIII as I'm told - I only ever played AE and only casually then =/.
Just leave it at that man. =)
 
i feel all characters have their strengths n weaknesses and ppl like to make excuses like "unbalanced" when they lose alot. PERSONALLY i never really felt the game was unbalanced maybe im not high level enough to tell but if i found i was losing too much to one character, i never used excuses like the opponent was broken or my character was broken i blamed my skill level and practiced to get better. even with hilde, i was kinda surprised that ppl thought she was broken and even after that id just pick bigger stages or stages with no RO.
 
Benjamin_Dover said:
I'd just pick bigger stages or stages with no RO.
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Tiers and balance only apply to competitive play - this is what Idle was saying:
How do you pick the stage in a tournament? More to the point, you think a character that in every matchup has the advantage (most often 7-3 or 8-2) is balanced?
Take Idle's advice bro - let it lie. =/
 
The news as of now of who's cheap and overpowered, is Hilde and Algol. They are banned in all continents except the odd Australia(No offense).

The reason why Hilde was banned, was because Hilde had a guaranteed "doom combo" that will even ring out from halfway through the stage no matter what kind. Since it made many people discouraged and frustrated, most left and it damaged the tourney metagame. A ban was needed to rid of her, but one could say it wasn't a pretty sight seeing a lot of top tiered players groaning from her. You can't escape the launch into a doom combo once it's initiated.

The reason why Algol was banned, was because of his bubble shield tactics. Like the same way Hilde made people feel frustrated, a ban was announced. Also, if you main Nighty, Sieggy, or Asty for instance, you will hate Algol even more because of the infinite bubble combo that's supposedly guaranteed on them.

Basically with no Hilde or Algol, the game is fairly balanced with their high and low tiers. Yoda is nowhere near cheap to people who know him since he literally sucks. Playing him against a competent player in a tourney is like handing over your lunch money to a bully lol. He only appears "cheap" because you have to exploit his weaknesses and capitalize on his flaws. I can pretty much troll and say anyone with a good enough competent skill can just use something as simple as Mitsu's or Sophie's BB for instance to stop him. And I wish I was exaggerating. His only redeeming factors is high attacks will never work and you can't grab him. Everything else is just seen as "meh".
 
Pocky-Yoshi said:
Also, if you main Nighty, Sieggy, or Asty for instance, you will hate Algol even more because of the infinite bubble combo that's supposedly guaranteed on them.
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I've actually discussed this with Bubbles and the 33B infinite only has a 50% success rate, though I still oppose allowing any character with infinites. =/
And Siegfried makes Algols bubble game pretty redundant as 6B skullfucks it tbh, as Sacharja proved against the good doctor a couple of years ago.
I thought the 33B infinite only triggered on NM and Sieg though? I didn't know Asta could be as well.

On an interesting side note: Ataroth and Rock CANNOT be doom comboed - their respective hitboxes don't allow for a C2B relaunch to combo. Just a funfact to throw out there. I will say though - Hilde and Algol were banned for good reason imo.
 
Vader can also not be hit with the doom combo. Oh and the algol bubble thing works on Zas too, maybe vader not sure.
 
Synraii said:
I've actually discussed this with Bubbles and the 33B infinite only has a 50% success rate, though I still oppose allowing any character with infinites. =/
And Siegfried makes Algols bubble game pretty redundant as 6B skullfucks it tbh, as Sacharja proved against the good doctor a couple of years ago.
I thought the 33B infinite only triggered on NM and Sieg though? I didn't know Asta could be as well.

On an interesting side note: Ataroth and Rock CANNOT be doom comboed - their respective hitboxes don't allow for a C2B relaunch to combo. Just a funfact to throw out there. I will say though - Hilde and Algol were banned for good reason imo.
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Ah thanks for shedding the light on me good friend.
 
OK, I'll admit, I hate Hilde but I believe that any character can be worked past. I believe some are annoying, but I believe that all characters can be beaten. Cheap moves or not, I think all characters, with the right player, can beat any otherr chracter no matter what. Something that I want to be put out is that this forum is my opinion. I don't say it is a defined truth. I stated multiple time it was an opinion. I wrote what I believe. If you compare SC to the dozens of other fighting games, how bad are two banned characters as compared to the lord many that other games have. I think that thats not half bad honestly. I like hearing other opinions. That's why I wrote this.
 
i think you guys are being rude to the casual players we can feel when a player is OP my brother and i got in fight once because i was getting him RO with Hilde all the time and i told him you should get another strategy and i stopped using her when i realized that around the world she recognized for being OP...
 
You can't really "discuss opinions" on the nature of SC's (or any games) balance.

If you say: "I feel SC is balanced" but state it as an opinion, where is the room for discussion?
If I say "I don't feel SC is balanced" as an opinion; isn't that just me saying something to say something, not saying something that can be talked about, agreed with or disagreed with?

What good comes from that? Where comes the discussion?

Balance might be be subjective to a degree, but it isn't so subjective that it isn't quantifiable enough to discuss in some way. You may "feel" that any character can beat any other character, but as you get better and better at the game, it becomes less and less true.

The fact of the matter is, in ANY SC (and don't believe the rose colored glasses people about SC2) lower tiers can only win against equally skilled high level opponents on character ignorance. In other levels of play, balance varies (and so do tiers) because the skill of the players varies. The games aren't balanced. We have two banned characters, and several characters who are completely not viable for tournament play. That's the reality of the situation at high level. Sitting around playing with your buddies, or playing online, that might not be the case.
 
IdleMind said:
You can't really "discuss opinions" on the nature of SC's (or any games) balance.

If you say: "I feel SC is balanced" but state it as an opinion, where is the room for discussion?
If I say "I don't feel SC is balanced" as an opinion; isn't that just me saying something?
What good comes from that? Where comes the discussion?

Balance might be be subjective to a degree, but it isn't so subjective that it isn't quantifiable enough to discuss in some way. You may "feel" that any character can beat any other character, but as you get better and better at the game, it becomes less and less true.

The fact of the matter is, in ANY SC (and don't believe the rose colored glasses people about SC2) lower tiers can only win against equally skilled high level opponents on character ignorance. In other levels of play, balance varies (and so do tiers) because the skill of the players varies. The games aren't balanced. We have two banned characters, and several characters who are completely not viable for tournament play. That's the reality of the situation at high level. Sitting around playing with your buddies, or playing online, that might not be the case.
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i guess your right well I'm going to join the SCV tournament scene, I'm tired playing this game casually i have feeling that this is my chance SCV will be mine anyway tks for the reply.
 
no I don't feel SC4 is balanced
-we have banned 2 characters
-most majors are won by amy and ivy

not very balanced in my eyes
 
Hm, I know I will get flamed for this but I feel that Tira is a bit over-powered versus Talim.

I think I'm a decent Talim player, against most people I can fight pretty well, but Tira is able to keep good preasure on against me and keep me from landing too many blows. T

That said I have fought truly amazing people playing all characters.

I too feel that Algol and Yoda are particularly cheap.
 
SC will never be balanced, tier exist in every fighting games unless you make a game with 20 chars share the same move set only difference 3D render (urgh!...must...not...say the name). The only point is: when you grow adapt to the game, balance is less likely your concern.

-Saga-:sc2maxi1:
 


OK, I'm sorry. Yes, there are good characters that murder, disgrace, and overall just make the game stupid. We have weak, unplayable characters, and a team of developers so undedicated that they never decide to nerf an over the top character. I'm sorry. Is that what you wanted to hear? If the case becomes that then we accept an order, then what happens is that SC is just a waste of time, and this ENTIRE site would be worthless. Heck, the whole of SCIV would be a waste cause you really only need 2 characters. The reason I say any odd can be overcome is because it happens all the time. In a game (just for example) like street fighter if a player see's that a character like Yun is overpowered then they learn to fight more effectively. They find a counter. I don't think people should go belly up and admit that a character can't be defeated. Cause if thats it then why bother? We, as players, should think outside the box. We should be able to find counters. Cause in all honesty, Ivy and Amy are only as good as the player who knows how to maim them with another character. In response to Jakajantiamu, I believe that some characters definitely have advantages against others just due to the nature of their weapons and styles. And I really like what Saga said. The power to adapt is the ultimate weapon. You play it smart, and you can compensate for any situation or character tier. Know their weaknesses and strengths. Know yourself but know your enemy more.
 
DW1 said:
OK, I'm sorry. Yes, there are good characters that murder, disgrace, and overall just make the game stupid. We have weak, unplayable characters, and a team of developers so undedicated that they never decide to nerf an over the top character. I'm sorry. Is that what you wanted to hear? If the case becomes that then we accept an order, then what happens is that SC is just a waste of time, and this ENTIRE site would be worthless. Heck, the whole of SCIV would be a waste cause you really only need 2 characters. The reason I say any odd can be overcome is because it happens all the time. In a game (just for example) like street fighter if a player see's that a character like Yun is overpowered then they learn to fight more effectively. They find a counter. I don't think people should go belly up and admit that a character can't be defeated. Cause if thats it then why bother? We, as players, should think outside the box. We should be able to find counters. Cause in all honesty, Ivy and Amy are only as good as the player who knows how to maim them with another character. In response to Jakajantiamu, I believe that some characters definitely have advantages against others just due to the nature of their weapons and styles. And I really like what Saga said. The power to adapt is the ultimate weapon. You play it smart, and you can compensate for any situation or character tier. Know their weaknesses and strengths. Know yourself but know your enemy more.
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PARAGRAPHS. DO YOU KNOW OF THEM???><???

READ THIS, PLEASE:
http://www.examples-help.org.uk/english-grammar/paragraphs.htm

I can see in your first post you tried, I commend you, truly I do. But by the time you got to this second post, clearly you got a little emotional and that restraint you'd built up just flew out the window. You can fix this however, it's as easy as reading your post back to yourself and inserting a line ending here and there where necessary. I see that you've tried your hand at it before, and with practice you can make your posts that much easier to read.

Of course a well written post has other benefits. Besides increasing the number of people who will actually take your ideas seriously, and increasing a reader's enjoyment of your post, a well written paragraph increases the strength with which you present your ideas, and makes your arguments that much more persuasive.

Let's see if you can make your next post, a little stronger, shall we?
 
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