Spacing issues with Talim

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those double tap 8 way run moves fucking hard to input on the garbage xbox 360 controller. if i tap 22_88 k i might end up wind charming across the ring.
 
malapardis said:
I still like her style, and she can be fun to play when things work well. It's just that they so rarely work.
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Funny you should mention that. My Talim now is nothing like how I used to play her. I used to spam stances like crazy and rely purely on mix-ups. I can win more games now, and I think that's mainly because I now use moves/combos that are safer and more efficient. One of my friend whom I've played with from very early on commented that my Talim's not as 'fun' to play against anymore... and I guess even though I win more games now, I have to agree that it's not as fun for me as well.

What ZeroEffect is trying to say I guess, is that there's a time and a place for each of the stances, use them wisely and don't spam them randomly, because you will be punished... but play her however you see fit. Afterall, a victory doesn't necessarily determine how 'fun' the game was. :)
 
MasudSabr said:
What ZeroEffect is trying to say I guess, is that there's a time and a place for each of the stances, use them wisely and don't spam them randomly, because you will be punished... but play her however you see fit. Afterall, a victory doesn't necessarily determine how 'fun' the game was. :)
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Yup, exactly.

In my case, I still find playing as Talim very fun, probably more so now than when I was flipping around all over the place. This is likely because finding hidden gems in her move list (i.e. 2A, 1A+B, and WC moves) to solve problems keeps me into playing her. And besides, once Talim's built enough momentum, flipping around becomes a nightmare for her opponent to have to keep guessing where she'll strike next.

I've fought plenty of Talims online, and I can't remember any two of them playing the exact same way. So yeah, you can play her a bit safer without losing your style.
 
ZeroEffect317 said:
22_88K works wonders when you're cornered and trying to quickly change positions. And if you find that after a blocked move you get hit out of windsault, you could use Windsault A+B (buzzsaw looking move) to beat out 90% of retaliations.
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Yeah, last night I tried putting more Windsault A+B in, and it worked pretty well a few times, as it did indeed beat him to the punch fairly frequently. The problem is the incredibly unsafeness on block. Opponent got a free throw after every blocked WS A+B. Of course, at least he was blocking and not knocking me out of WS. I guess I prefer that.

But I wound up with another problem. He was playing primarily with X, and I couldn't punish after blocking. He'd do something silly like X's 1K, I'd block it, and then I couldn't retaliate. Anything quick enough had range issues (blocking the 1K and many other basic X attacks gets you pushed apart a little bit) and anything w/ range didn't have the speed I needed. In fact, last night is when I first realized how slow her while-rising A is. It looks fast when it connects, especially when it connects on CH, because the opponent goes flying. But when you whiff it or get it blocked as often as I did last night, you realize how slow it is :(

I'll look through the threads for the best Talim punishers, but I was having serious issues last night punishing. I still managed to eek out a 10-8 win by the end of the session, so that's good.
 
Unfortunately, this is where Talim starts to show her faults. She can't punish a lot of moves that other characters can due to her range, and even when she has the range, most of the time she can't punish them all that well. WS A is 17 frames, so it's relatively quick but it won't punish many moves on block. Use WS B for that (14 frames: fastest While standing move in her arsenal). X's 1K is safe from Talim though so it wouldn't matter what you used there.

However, what Talim can do with WS A is counter attack certain strings. Particularly those with Highs in them. This is why I started trying to test for counter attack situations in my other thread. Talim can get a lot more damage from whiff punishing or evading than block punishing.
 
WL and WC are both best used for evading IMO, which i think is how talim is truly meant to be played. The days when i'm really ON, i'm a freaking ninja and i can't be touched. But that is also a downfall, if you get hit out of either you will be punished hard.
 
PRiNCEALi said:
WL and WC are both best used for evading IMO, which i think is how talim is truly meant to be played. The days when i'm really ON, i'm a freaking ninja and i can't be touched. But that is also a downfall, if you get hit out of either you will be punished hard.
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I think about it nearly the same. Although I sometimes love to do random AS A+B (wich I shouldn't do...kids don't try this at home!) the best time for AS is defenitly after a 2A+B on a downed opponent or on a downed opponent in general. Because you then get a true 50/50 mixup (AS A, AS B+K). WL is an awesome stance. It would be crazy super mega awesome if it didn't canceled out itself with a AS though...almost everybody backsteps (or WL if you are fighting another Talim) and then you are screwed.

WC is also really a charm...(sorry I just had to do that). Not only it evades but you can also mix up a lot (wich is also a big part of my game) after AS A, WC A A.
WC K for Ringout and countering high attacks. WC A A (B) for if your opponent sucks and just doesn't block at all. WC B B for if your opponent ducks (wich they should be doing as they all fear the....) WC B+G/A+G!!! I love this one! Makes me backturned and having advantage. Most of the people either attack or block. For the attackers a BT B or A should take care of the problem. And for the blockers you just turn around and do the multipart throw(Also sometimes if I am feeling lucky or if I freezed my opponent so hard I am going for the Unblockable)

But I am drifting away from the subject. Most of my spacing issues are dealt with with AS A+B. Although you really have to time this one otherwise you will suffer a free throw/punishment. AS K (yes really that one yeah) can sometimes also be great cause if you whiff you are staying on the ground and making your opponents attack whiff for a great deal. Aaaaah I am talking to much...
 
I agree that WC throws are great. Nobody ever attacks me out of BT though out of fear of BT B. I usually just turn around and go for another WC throw. Once that lands, (and it will 90% of the time unless they break it) I do WC again and choose between WC B:B or WC K since by now they're almost always conditioned to duck the throw attempt. This sequence drains about 90 dmg without the WC AA setup so it's indeed a VERY useful mixup.

But to go back on topic...

All AS options except AS B and AS A+K are GOLD if your opponent uses long range lows in their spacing game. Sometimes if they use long range high strings, (Mina's or Kilik's AA) a timely 66A+B will take care of them as it TCs throughout it's animation. In some cases you can even use her B+K unblockable, though I'm not sure when it TCs.
 
That's how I think of talim. Alot of people say she cant punish, but the way I look at her, is that she actually CAN punish, but unlike pretty much every other character who can punish from block, talim has to punish from evasion

Meaning that you're not looking to block moves and then do something, you're looking to just flat out not be there. >.>
 
I'm picking up a lot of good stuff from y'all. keep it coming.

Prymo:
You know AAB is guaranteed out of WC, if you 1A or AS A is a CH.

This whole after BT turn around then Throw is GENIUS!! I always go for the Throw while still in BT, which only lands if they are near a a wall or edge. f***ing money
 
Dogysamich said:
That's how I think of talim. Alot of people say she cant punish, but the way I look at her, is that she actually CAN punish, but unlike pretty much every other character who can punish from block, talim has to punish from evasion

Meaning that you're not looking to block moves and then do something, you're looking to just flat out not be there. >.>
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This is exactly right. The most basic ones being WL A or WC B:B. Actually I spend more time in the wind transitions then guarding (wich is a bad habit against rushdown players...)

Prymo:
You know AAB is guaranteed out of WC, if you 1A or AS A is a CH.
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Yeah I knew that, although I prefer to WC A,A and mixing it up afterwards with Tagga (WC A+G/B+G) or WC B,B/K. I am more of a risk/reward type of player. I accept that if you block me I deserve to be punished. But likewise if you didn't guess right or read me right then yeah...you will catch alot of damage(however against most characters the WC moves are safe on block I thought?)

Also what I also have been doing alot more lately is the 66A+B,G cancel on wakeup. And from there BT B or [A]. I haven't seen much Talims use that move outside of the tech trep (CH 4B,B). I guess there are also far much better options on wakeup.
 
Yeah, I think that's how Talim was initially designed. In SCII she definitely was evasive-based, but since then she's kind of traded it for rush down mix-ups... Maybe the designer thought it clashed with Taki or something? She's still good at evading, but the other characters have improved too and now tracked better than Talim could dodge.

I think I rely on WC to dodge too much too lol You need to side step + WC to doge most things, but I often panic and forget the side step and go straight to WC... It works sometimes, but most of the time the other characters simply turn around... Which makes you wonder how they could do that. I mean, how on earth does Zas move his scythe sideways when he stuck it in the ground?!

... end of rant. lol
 
ya know, im probably going to sound like a clown for saying this, but I realized something that I think is pretty big today.

When you're in BT and you want to turn around, you can actually press any direction to turn around, and Talim will take a step in that direction (you cant do one forward, you'll just ... turn around in place like you held G)

Now, im probably behind times, but I realized today that from BT, you can get a ridiculously long WC out of this. I already have some BT WC shinanigans, but now I get the added bonus of Talim's sidestep (which i think is pretty fuckin good, dont quote me on that)

And now she's like, spinning clean around people from slight disadvantage.

__

Thoughts? Or do i need to take my happy ass back to Cassandra?
 
Dogysamich said:
When you're in BT and you want to turn around, you can actually press any direction to turn around, and Talim will take a step in that direction (you cant do one forward, you'll just ... turn around in place like you held G)

Now, im probably behind times, but I realized today that from BT, you can get a ridiculously long WC out of this. I already have some BT WC shinanigans, but now I get the added bonus of Talim's sidestep (which i think is pretty fuckin good, dont quote me on that)

And now she's like, spinning clean around people from slight disadvantage.

Thoughts? Or do i need to take my happy ass back to Cassandra?
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Yup. That's right. pressing Up or Down to turn around and step at the same time is useful, and especially if you're at disadvantage. All mid verticals will shutdown everything Talim can do from BT so most people who know this will attempt one. That's where this tactic comes in. With no auto GI or anything to prevent it, it seems stepping is the only way around this.

And yes, Talim's sidestep is pretty good.
 
yeah, i figured i was way behind the curve. XD

I just always hit g to turn around. Just did all sorts of dumb shinanigans, like WCGrab-to-WCGrab combos. Ah well. Maybe somebody will read this in the future and not have to admit to being completely retarded.
 
I'm going to sound even more behind the times here. Got two questions:

1. When is BT WC an option? I know you can do it after a 6B, but when else? Anytime at all that she's BT?

2. And is what I'm hearing that when you do a BT WC instead of a regular WC, she sidesteps farther than a regular WC?

Because frankly, I found WC to be a horrible evasive technique. X's BB will hit Talim out of A,A,6B,A,WC before she can get the WC AA out. Her Bs! So obviously the stepping from the WC is not being effective here.
 
Technically, you cant do a WC from BT. You press guard to turn around and quickly do another WC. This can be done anytime Talim is in BT.

What Dogysamich was referring to, is that when you're in BT, if you press Up or Down instead of Guard to turn around, Talim will take a step in that direction in addition to turning around. So it's like turning around and sidestepping at the same time. Then once turned you can do WC. Since you already stepped first using WC will lengthen the range of your sidestep.

Also, Dogysamich, why do you think that doing a second WC grab after hitting the first one is dumb? Just curious.
 
because somebody has to stand there for a long time for it to work. I'm not saying it's bad, cause I fucking love it.

I think the most i've gotten on a competent person was 4 in a row. Imo all it really requires 2 things

1) your opponent to understand that if they try to attack you after WC throw, they're getting raped by BT B.
2) your opponent to then wait for BT B, a turn around of some kind, and then WC again.

It's not dumb as in "Dont do it", it's dumb as in "I cant believe this actually works." It also doesnt help the situation when you do real dumb lookin shit like press 8 to turn around, then 2 WC. Just imagine that in your head and figure out why somebody would NOT 2a in that situation. XD

From what i've seen, very few people actually comprehend what's happening fast enough to actually attack you after you turn around. If they're going to do it, it'll probably come if you hesitate with your back turned. So if you do everything immediately and somebody is looking to do something, they'll normally look to duck the throw. They MIGHT 2a. But as long as this whole sequence isnt your default option, you probably wont get wrecked while doing it. Cause remember, for all this to work, they have to initially wait for you from WC Throw or else eat BT B.
___

Hell, i'd almost go as far as to say it's actually a "smart trick" because all of that HAS to happen (that's a term general term i actually use for stuff that requires your opponent to have some intelligence to work)

Cause realistically, you'll probably never get this on a total scrub, they're going to swing at some point in all this no matter how hard you train them.

_____

edit

I mean if you wanna know about dumb tricks, lemme tell you about my timeout trick.

If i have a sizeable lead on somebody with about 10 seconds on the clock or so, what I do is get a little bit of room, and do AS K. Miss intentionally. And just lay there.

Who the fuck expects their opponent to put themselves on the ground and stay there? But think about it. Unless your opponent has a rape ass okizeme game, you're just gunna take some chip damage. You roll around a little bit to make it look like you're actually trying to get in there and do something, but really you just stay there and pray they dont realize what's happening.

It's pretty, but considering it's not something you see everytime, some people will be completely confused.
 
Dogysamich said:
If i have a sizeable lead on somebody with about 10 seconds on the clock or so, what I do is get a little bit of room, and do AS K. Miss intentionally. And just lay there.
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hahaha, you know what? that's actually a decent idea. I never thought of that before.

But yeah, WC grab chains are great mixup tools. I've gotten countless BT Bs and WC B:Bs and WC Ks to hit when they fear the second or third grab. And I've realized recently that if they're smart enough to try a 2A you can just AS A+K them out of WC. You get too many +frames for them to hit you before you jump usually, unless they try to attack immediately. Which, because of BT B they normally hesitate.
 
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