Talim changes for the next Major patch

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Let us not be so quick to judge Talim. =)

I like how Talim can start her wind moves without having to do 2A+B, for example, like how she was in SC2. That's a big plus! So, when you anticipate a move or even see it coming, dodge it by guessing or by reflex using the appropriate wind technique (which is challenging but somehow we need to figure out how to be dodging gurus). The down side, ofcourse, is that when we use a wind technique, the game makes us do something right after in retaliation. Which means we can't just throw out wind techniques randomly, we actually have to use them to dodge in order to reap the rewards.


Talim's over all moveset is quite slow. And I understand, as Jaxel said, that Talim's moveset overall provides little reward and high risk. But that forces us to dodge, cause the opponent to whiff and then retaliate, giving us enough time to use those relatively slowish and risky moves...and actually hit. Talim's not about going toe to toe with the opponent right in front of them. Neither is she about jumping around all over the place and hoping to dodge some attacks. We need to analyze the opponent's strategy, dodge those moves as we see them coming or as we anticipate them, and then retaliate.

If the opponent sits their and blocks a lot/punishes. Consider using 2A+B, 6A+B and 6A+BG (fake). Whittle their soul down. If their soul gauge is threatened, they've got no choice but to attack a little more or start GIing/parrying/dodging. That'll be in your favour. Good luck.

Heck I'm no expert. And I know I can be wrong so provide feed back about anything. However, that is my philosophie de Talime.

P.S. sorry perhaps I should have typed this in some different thread. I started typing a little and got carried away by ze spirit de Talime.
 
Actually, I think Talim's overall moveset is fairly quick. At least for the moves you would be using more regularly. Most of her better moves outside of stances fall between 13 and 17 frames. (AA series, BB, 6B, ws B, 66A, etc.) And then there's 11B and 66B which, while on paper are slow moves (over 20+ frames) the animation makes them deceptively quick.

In general her unsafety is warranted, since she makes up for it in her numerous strings and delays that when mixed up properly will cause the opponent to refrain from punishing. Her game is based around maintaining pressure. Though again, I don't think everything from AS should be so unsafe.
 
In addition to most of the stuff said here, I think, quite honestly, if 4B (+4BB), and 33A were safe, it'd help Talim out tons. With 4BB, I mean even non-GIable.
 
It'd also be cool if she could grab out of wind sault. It wouldn't even have to be a KD grab, maybe just do a little bit of damage and give her +frames.
 
After having mained her for nearly 2 years now, I don't think Talim really needs a whole lot of extra range and damage. I think that this version of Talim plays like a "near-complete" character. By this I mean, with proper testing and common sense she could actually be capable of her true potential.

Conceptually, SC4 Talim's design and her tools could easily allow her to be mid-tier. But there are too many bugs in the system and practical flaws for her to be there. So... just tweak a few things that she already has, and you'd have a solid character.


Move Errors/Gltches:
:6::6::A: - This move is a really good move. One of, if not the best step-catcher she has on run-in, and one of her best transitions.... But there are whiffing issues with the 2nd hit. You know, the part that actually matters. Easily could be fixed with prior testing and adjusting the hitbox. There's no reason I should be getting punished after successfully landing the move.

:4::B::B: - This move should be NC in my opinion. That's it. They don't have to change anything else about it. Keep the full string being unsafe if they want. Keep me at negative frames on NH if they want. If you hold it, of course, it's should not be NC anymore.

WC :B:::B: - This move is a decent move. Since you went through the effort of perfecting the JF version, why can't the GB be advantage on guard? It doesn't have to be +13 or anything, but at least like +4 or something. I don't care about WC B*B being minor negative, but the JF too? really?

:4::A::A: - This move is absolutely useless as is. It NEVER comboes, and plus, it's even unsafe! So whether you land this move on CH or not you're still getting punished for more damage then you dealt... If it's not gonna be NC, at least it should be NCC. Seriously.

:1::A: - This is probably the most telegraphed low in the game, but does have it's uses. This is also the only move I'd completely change the properties of. Only reason, is because Talim's :(1)::A: is uh... the EXACT same move! (Except it's worse because it does less damage than :1::A:)

Instead, I'd make this one faster and give a tripping effect (like Kilik's 2A). It wouldn't knock down, but maybe give small advantage on hit. Doesn't go into WC. (Maybe AS and WL though...) Still can be just as unsafe on block if they want. Keep :(1)::A: as is.


:3::B::A: - This move needs the most work in my opinion. It is NC on it's own, but risky on block. The 3B part has a rather unreliable TC property that should be fixed. On CH, 3B causes a crumple stun knockdown.

The main problem I have with this move, is that the re-stun combo off of CH 3B requires you to hold the 2nd hit for it to work. Release it too soon, it doesn't stun... release it too late, it whiffs over them.... The A doesn't combo after 3B on NH if you hold the A, but it ends the stun after 3B on CH if you don't hold the A.

This means that if you plan to use this move as an interrupt, (the way it was meant to be used) you have to guess TWICE. You have to guess if they're gonna get hit, and then guess if it's gonna be a CH, just so you know whether or not to hold the A. Why over-complicate this??

Just make 3BA re-stun regardless of how long you hold the A. If I managed to use it properly and get my CH, don't I deserve to be able to complete the combo without making another guess? That way, you are now looking at a i17 TC attack doing about 60+ damage on CH. This makes for a really solid interrupt.


BT :2::K: - I think it was mentioned before but, make this move KNOCK DOWN on NH!

No. this would not be broken. Even if she has lots of ways to enter BT, her BT game is not so incredible that this is warranted.

Cervy's BT 2K knocks down and gives him a free WS BB! What does Talim get off of BT 2K? regular 2K... If you duck and Cervy uses BT B+K, well you're eating a whole 3B combo for loads of damage. Talim's BT B is good, but it's not any more damage than Cervy's BT option. So again, why is it ok for his BT 2K to be a threat while Talim's isn't?

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Speaking of her BT game, I think this area is where she would benefit alot from if they did it right.

Anyone who's familiar with Tekken has heard of the character Ling Xiaoyu. Tekken's Xiaoyu is a very similar playing character to SC's Talim. What I noticed about Xiao is, she has several moves that put her in BT, but you have the OPTION of whether or not you want to end in BT by either holding the input down or by pressing a direction afterwards. This would really be useful for Talim. They've already done it with her :(6)::K:/:(6)::(K): and her :4::A::K:/:4::A::(K):, so do it with :6::B:, :3::A:, and :4::A::+::B:.

- They have an input for :(4)::A::+::B:, but that's a lesser damage version of :4::A::+::B:... It's pointless. Get rid of it and make it :4::(A)::+::(B): that keeps her in front turned. Worse frames on hit, but better frames on block.
- Make :6::(B): the same as :6::B: only keep her in front turned. Worse frames on hit, Better frames on block. With this, the tool really becomes a good SG pressure tool. It's still very linear, though, so it's not entirely spammable.
- :3::(A): would be the same way. Worse frames on hit, (due to turnaround recovery), but better frames on block (due to increased blockstun).

I don't see how that concept would be OP or broken since they've already done it with certain moves of hers. It allows her to maintain pressure even better which, since she's mainly designed for that, would fit in perfectly. (SC2's BT aGI's would be unnecessary, though it really wouldn't hurt to have back.)

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Frames:
- I think they should've made her WS K i15, and her WS A i16. This would improve her punishing ability from crouch a bit without being OP.

- Talim is designed to be a fast character... why not give her i11 AAs like X and Yoshi? Doesn't sound like too much to ask.

- Her :(3)::A: should be mostly safe, (as previously mentioned), but be heavily negative frames like -10 or -11. That way a few characters can still punish, but not the whole cast getting good stuff. And when you consider Lizzy's :(6)::A: at -12, which causes a shakeable stun, and breaks in 20 (as opposed to Talim's :(3)::A: breaking in 63), is this really too much to ask?


Stances:

Wind Leap should be able to cancel out of the automatic Wind Sault followup. This could be solved by allowing you to press :4::B::+::K::4: or something to stay back out of range of punishment. Or by having you stay in place when you do UB cancels.

Wind Charmer should have sidestep evasion properties throughout the animation instead of just in the initial frames. (Kinda like Amy's 66B2_8) Delayed verticals should not hit you out of this unless they hit you after you stopped moving. It was designed for evasion anyway... why make it half a tool?

Wind Sault is just unsafe everywhere. It's fine otherwise. I'd have AS A+B be safe (like -9 or -10) and AS B+K be less unsafe (-14 or -15) while keeping the other moves as they are. It doesn't make the stance that much better, but it does make it more viable for closing distance. This would improve the forward motion aspect of her game dramatically.


Since there's obviously not gonna be a new patch for this game, the only thing to hope for is that NB actually decides to make an SC5 for any changes to Talim to be made. If we're talking about making her top-tier, then yeah there's a lot to be said for safety,range,and more damage... but I'm mainly talking about balancing her with the rest of the cast. Anyway, I just felt like posting something about how I saw this version of Talim.
 
These are probably steps in the right direction.

I guess another way to look at this Q (to help w/balance) is to ask what moves have to be changed for other charas.
I mean no one's gonna say their own character's move needs to be toned down.
 
That's true. You have a good point. I think SC4 is actually balanced out better than most think. But if anything would need to be changed it would be small stuff like this for all the lower tier characters. The top tier characters may have a few issues here or there, but it doesn't cripple their abilities much.

I'd say any move property errors (random whiffing, unreliable TC/TJ, etc.) for any character should be fixed. Only OP tools should be toned down some, like the Hilde Doom combo for example.

Other than that, I think balancing should be more about building up the bottom than toning down the top.
 
I Think that her stances should be cancel able her moves safer and an auto gi however i think 4B+K should be able to go into 8B+K. Talk about a hilde counter move.
 
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