Tekken throw break system: Yes or No?

[mkl]

True, but that's the beauty of SC, knowing when to do what, and accepting the risk. If Cervy is doing 66B, you can easily stand up on reaction and block.

That's the whole mind game. I get trapped in it because I'm a little to defensive minded sometimes and fish for CHs. If I stand up to block on reaction what I believe to be Cervy's 66B (i18 and not really telegraphed at all) I could be thrown if I react incorrectly (or he could just toss i13 aB in there in case). It's not impossible at all to react correctly but you can easily make mistakes and play into their hand.

 

[damn-I-Suck]

That's the whole mind game. I get trapped in it because I'm a little to defensive minded sometimes and fish for CHs. If I stand up to block on reaction what I believe to be Cervy's 66B (i18) I could be thrown if I react incorrectly (or he could just toss i13 aB in there in case). It's not impossible at all to react correctly but you can easily make mistakes and play into their hand.

It's psychological warfare, at it's finest. Lately, I've been trying NOT to anticipate things and instead just go on reaction, but I'm human and that means I make mistakes too.

I'm 28 years old now... My reaction time should be slowing down because of age... But SC made it even better than it was when I was young. Enough SC playing and you could recognize a move from it's very initial animation, possibly even within the first 8 frames or so. If throws are 17 frames, and I can duck on reaction about 60% of the time, then it's quite possible for someone else to do it..

What's gonna happen to my reactions when I keep playing SC and age 50? 60? Is their a retirement age for FG players?

 

[mkl]

It's psychological warfare, at it's finest.

It is, it just frustrates the hell out of me. I really shouldn't bitch about it since most throw situations are a result of you being in a situation you put yourself in anyway. If they did have Tekken's system it would still be very difficult to see the throw type and react that quickly anyway.

I suppose remove Asta's ability to break back throws and I'll be OK with the throw system. Depending on how fucked up the break damage is in V.

EDIT: About ducking a throw on reaction when you see its initial animation: I just can't do it consistently (especially online, which is virtually never). 17 frame throws give you a little more than a quarter of a second to duck. I know many other people that can though.

 

[IdleMind]

Here is my resume: Tournament level Tekken player since T3. Tournament Level SC player since SC1

The Tekken throw break system supports reading and reacting as a skill. The entire game of Tekken does; hence why it's so turtly. You only land throws in Tekken when you catch someone with their pants down.

The SC throw system exists to actually break turtles. If I caught you standing, guess what, you done goofed. You then get A SECOND CHANCE to escape damage on top of fucking up, I'd say it's pretty forgiving too. Plus you can use context and position clues to break throws, and reads.

My opinion: A game that is purely made up of read-and-react elements is a bad game. I could go play a sport if that is what I wanted. A good mixture of mental games and some read-and-react elements is better; thus SC's throw system is superior because it actually sets out what it tries to do: Force defensive players to do something.

If you removed throws entirely from Tekken, nothing would change at high level at all. It's just a stupid hurdle you have to get over in order to even begin to play the "real game", just like korean backdash cancelling.

 

[damn-I-Suck]

I have to say Idle, I never thought about it quite like that, but your right. Sc system is better because of the mind game factor.

 

[Synraii]

I do it often.

You can often duck a move which is 1 frame slower than Mitsu 2KB, one frame faster than Amy 2B+K and if it is Voldo, the same speed as 2KB?
I'm sorry, but I don't believe that.

 

[damn-I-Suck]

You can often duck a move which is 1 frame slower than Mitsu 2KB, one frame faster than Amy 2B+K and if it is Voldo, the same speed as 2KB?
I'm sorry, but I don't believe that.

I guess it depends on what you mean by often. For me, it's a pinch over half.

The reason I can recognize a throw faster than a normal move is because the animation is the same or very similar for each character, normal throws that is.

 

[Awestruck]

you are comparing apples to oranges.

.

 

[Cosmic_Castaway]

The Tekken throw break system supports reading and reacting as a skill. The entire game of Tekken does; hence why it's so turtly. You only land throws in Tekken when you catch someone with their pants down.

The SC throw system exists to actually break turtles. If I caught you standing, guess what, you done goofed. You then get A SECOND CHANCE to escape damage on top of fucking up, I'd say it's pretty forgiving too. Plus you can use context and position clues to break throws, and reads.

My opinion: A game that is purely made up of read-and-react elements is a bad game. I could go play a sport if that is what I wanted. A good mixture of mental games and some read-and-react elements is better; thus SC's throw system is superior because it actually sets out what it tries to do: Force defensive players to do something.

If you removed throws entirely from Tekken, nothing would change at high level at all. It's just a stupid hurdle you have to get over in order to even begin to play the "real game", just like korean backdash cancelling.

Tekken's throw system is used to break turtles as well, believe it or not. Persistence outweighs resistance. If you keep someone on their toes by making them constantly have to break throws, you can get inside their head pretty quickly. You're able to create openings, and make them antsy. If I just sat there throwing someone for like 20 seconds, they're going to want to start pressing a button in order to get me off them. That's a pretty solid mindgame, at least from where I stand.

Throws are used for level positioning as well, not just dealing damage and mind games. If I have my back to the wall with Dragunov, for example, I'm probably going to mash 2+4, because no matter what, Dragunov's 2+4 throw will cause the opponent and I will switch places, so now their back is to the wall. If they break it, it's my turn don't break it, then I get to use my oki game, which is adjusted for the presence of the wall. Leo is another example of this, as they have a throw that will wallsplat if their back is to the wall, and the opponent does not break it (f,f+1+2). If I remember correctly, players will also switch side on break too.

Throws are never broken 100% of the time in Tekken, even at very high level play in Korea. Just look up some matches on ldmaxi's channel, and you'll see what I mean. Characters have entire setups built around throw game, and some characters like King rely on that (Seriously, all King players do is mids and throws).

At the highest level of gameplay, there is a small possibility you would not see a difference, but everything beneath that would certainly change. The game wouldn't be as deep, for one, and there would be nothing to break the newfound sanctity provided by blocking. Which, you know, that's a pretty important thing to deal with.

Overall, I would say Tekken's is better, because it rewards practice as well as reading your opponent (Plenty of instances where you can just read your opponent's gameplan and be fine), and just as many uses as SC's system.

 

[Sk37cH]

Both systems are very intricate, but I prefer Tekkens.

In SC, if you guess right and depending on how well you guessed, you get rewarded for it. But it all starts with guessing. If you guess wrong, no matter how skilled you are at the game you are going to pay for it.

Also, position on the screen will not determine if you will break a throw. It will just increase your chances, but if someone does a throw that doesn't ring you out, then you will wind up guessing wrong.

SC is highly reaction-based, just like Tekken. There are some moves that are too fast to see on reaction, but the moves that can be seen show how well ones defense is. Throws can be seen, but there is no system for rewarding a throw you see before guessing right.

Just to be clear on a few things for people that only play SC and not too much Tekken;
-It is extremely difficult to learn how to break throws. There are three types of throw breaks, and it sometimes takes people years to be able to say "I can break throws." It's not something you can pick up in a month or two.
-Certain characters like King, A.King, and Roger have throws where despite seeing the animation (which hands come out), you still have to guess (specifically giant swing).
-King has a set of guess-based throws (b 1+2) where if you guess right, you get free damage similar to SC.
-I don't know the frames yet for SC throws, but based on gameplay alone they seem slower than most Tekken throws. To be able to determine what type of throw is coming out, and break it on time faster than what you are normally used to is difficult.
-You get juggles for certain throws for certain characters. Wall splat after throws is a big thing for a lot of tekken characters. Laws ff3+4, for example, gives you a full bound combo being that the throw is a launch.

I am by default a Tekken player, but I love playing SC it's just that the community is not strong where I am from and I have a busy schedule. SC has an... interesting... throw break system but I honestly don't feel like it goes with the rest of the game. Keep in mind that all of these responses are opinions, so no need to bash anyone (just throwing it out there for people that were ready to come gunning for my response).

I don't know of any other game where throw breaking is completely reaction-based besides Tekken, and being that I've been practicing throw breaking for a while now I fully appreciate how difficult and rewarding it is when you actually can break throws. When I play SC, I see throws clearly (as stated earlier, SC throws seem to come out slower than Tekkens), but I am forced to guess on such a slow move.

I think what WOULD be interesting is a bit of both. Have SC be a reaction-based throw breaking system where the animation for A breaks would be left hand, B breaks would be right hand, BUT still keep early and late breaks and reward those who break early.

I was originally looking through these forums to actually find a definitive way to break throws in SC. I guess I got my answer, but I'm kind of disapointed in that dept. Don't get me wrong, I'm looking forward to SC V, but for a game that can reward people that know the frame data, the strings, the tracking, tons of specific just frame moves, heavy on smart defense, etc etc etc... guessing throws is more of a 2D MK/SF/MvC3 thing than a game where you can break on reaction. Plus, it is 50/50. Add another break, like an A+B break, or even a 4th one to make it even more complicated and reward early breaks, but take out the guessing.

 

[Sk37cH]

Also, just to add, Tekken has things like Parrys, Reversals, and Chickens, which kind of add to that whole throw-ish family of things in fighting games. Anna even has a reversal that reverses throws. I do really think SC is a great game, and just because I don't agree with the throw breaking system doesn't mean that don't like the game. I just started messing with early and late breaks and parrys and I really do like getting rewarded for early reaction to stuff. I'm all for a combination of reaction based breaking (like tekken), and rewarding early or punishing late (like SC). I don't think it'd get much fairer than that.

Glad to see people are discussing this, by the way.