The battle of big swords

Creme-Fraiche

Creme-Fraiche

[08] Mercenary
Who is better? Nightmare or Siegfried?

I wanna know what others think.

On one hand, Nightmare is somewhat faster and more damaging. He also has better spacing.

On the other hand, siegfried has more mixups and mindgames, and has more moves in this arsenal.

I use both these guys and they seem pretty equal.

Your opinions please:
 
I don't know about better/worse, but I personally prefer Siegfried, basically for the reasons you mentioned.
 
Siegfried because he is a man. Fuck yeah, 3(B)B.

Nightmare is too fake to be cool. How do you even describe what he is, some sort of demon creature? Edit: Jesus Christ, I just realized this game is all about talking swords.
 
If you skilled enough doesn't matter what character you play.From both I prefer Nightmare(he is cool)
 
If you face them against one another, its generally NM 5.5/Sieg 4.5. Simply because of NM's raw damage on individual hits, step, RO game, and he has a good amount of mix ups. They both have their advantages and disadvantages, good and bad match ups. Neither is really better than the other.
 
I like Nightmare's style more.
But i would have thought that Siegfried is generally stronger like 3B and stuff.
 
FleshMasher said:
I like Nightmare's style more.
But i would have thought that Siegfried is generally stronger like 3B and stuff.
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NM has his own 3B, which can lead to devastating mixups and wall combinations. NM's is i23 and is at -14 if guarded, while Sieg's is i17 but at -22 if guarded. So even in that aspect, they're relatively equal.
 
MammothMan said:
NM has his own 3B, which can lead to devastating mixups and wall combinations. NM's is i23 and is at -14 if guarded, while Sieg's is i17 but at -22 if guarded. So even in that aspect, they're relatively equal.
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That's not true, per se. Seig 3(B) is essentially -15, because 3(B) SBH K comes out in 16. I have never seen a Siegfried ever do 3B, ever, and I've been playing Jian since day 1. NM 3B is much MUCH worse.

-Idle
 
I unno about it being worse -17 and Full crouched is about the same as -15 and standing against most characters

some characters cant even punish NM 3B(LoL maxi and algol) let alone hit him if he decides to do NSS bA
 
NM, because you can move properly with him
Sieg, because he has a great mixup/pressure game and better side and back RO potential... ... And he's sexy ^_~
 
IdleMind said:
That's not true, per se. Seig 3(B) is essentially -15, because 3(B) SBH K comes out in 16. I have never seen a Siegfried ever do 3B, ever, and I've been playing Jian since day 1. NM 3B is much MUCH worse.

-Idle
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They are used so differently that they should not even be compared Idle. Its not much worse by any stretch of the imagination due to the mixup possibilities which 3B give. 3B potentially should lead to 90-110 damage every time it lands if used correctly. 44BB is a combo if the opponent does not tech and 1A is a tech trap if the opponent does tech.

Sieg's 3B is used as an interrupt or as part of a frame trap (when he is on plus frames). it is also used as a close range mixup. NM's 3B is used as whiff punish, grab mixups and step punish mixups. Both are extremely deadly.

Sieg is a much easier character to play well than Nightmare is. Nightmare requires a much higher understanding of the basics in order to be played at a competitive level. It is also a lot easier to play Siegfried safely and generates mixup pressure from close range and stationary positions. His frame traps are easier to use as well. However NM has better mobility, whiff punish capabilities and risk/reward options imho.

They are very different, they do very different things to achieve the same result. Both are great characters and can be played competitively at any level.
 
Engared said:
They are used so differently that they should not even be compared Idle. Its not much worse by any stretch of the imagination due to the mixup possibilities which 3B give. 3B potentially should lead to 90-110 damage every time it lands if used correctly. 44BB is a combo if the opponent does not tech and 1A is a tech trap if the opponent does tech.

Sieg's 3B is used as an interrupt or as part of a frame trap (when he is on plus frames). it is also used as a close range mixup. NM's 3B is used as whiff punish, grab mixups and step punish mixups. Both are extremely deadly.

Sieg is a much easier character to play well than Nightmare is. Nightmare requires a much higher understanding of the basics in order to be played at a competitive level. It is also a lot easier to play Siegfried safely and generates mixup pressure from close range and stationary positions. His frame traps are easier to use as well. However NM has better mobility, whiff punish capabilities and risk/reward options imho.

They are very different, they do very different things to achieve the same result. Both are great characters and can be played competitively at any level.
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These things are all true, however from my point of view as a Cass main; either way your getting 236 something-ed, lol. As She is a counterpick to both characters of at least 6-4, imo, and my opinion is probably a bit skewed given than everything NM does is unsafe to me or beatable by simple counters (GS? lol 2A most of the time, 2B+K pr 236A other times). I've always felt like Sig could adjust better vs her, whereas with NM you just have to hope she fucks up and you can run the tech/no tech train on her post whiff-punish.

-Idle
 
I find that as siegfried playing against NM, many of his stances are punishable to the extreme, and because of that, I find myself greatly limiting my move list against him. Maybe I'm wrong on this but playing a safe game waiting for punishments (and he's got good ones too) seems to work well for me. If i try going all out aggressive I get my A$$ kicked.

On the other hand I find Sieg much easier to win against the short reach, faster characters than NM.

Overall, I would have to disagree with the idea that Sieg is easier to use. NM has less moves, less stances and is slightly less punishable. Sure Sieg's moves are easy in terms of button inputs, but he's also harder because of his MANY options that he has. Not to mention NM seems like he's just a pinch faster overall. It is easier to mix things up with Sieg, but NM's mixups aren't too shabby either.

IMHO, NM is THE easiest character to use in the game. His moves are simple, straight forward, and devastating. His juggles and combos are also extremely simple. When using NM, I never find myself thinking "okay what do I do now?" It's pretty easy to figure out what to do with NM. If I use Sieg, even tho its still easy, there are those, "oh crap half my moves aren't working, WTF am I supposed to do now?".

Slightly off topic: Give NM back his 2A From SC3!! It's the same one Sieg has.
 
IdleMind said:
These things are all true, however from my point of view as a Cass main; either way your getting 236 something-ed, lol. As She is a counterpick to both characters of at least 6-4, imo, and my opinion is probably a bit skewed given than everything NM does is unsafe to me or beatable by simple counters (GS? lol 2A most of the time, 2B+K pr 236A other times). I've always felt like Sig could adjust better vs her, whereas with NM you just have to hope she fucks up and you can run the tech/no tech train on her post whiff-punish.

-Idle
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Well I find that (my opinion here) the matchup is 6-4 in NMs favor from my experience and looking at the real life matchs I have watched. Keev beating the crap out of Eggmaster (in the videos i have seen) in France is more evidence to support my claims. Against Cassy and Sophie, NM goes down to his 6-8 move set which does not allow cassy to 236B almost anything (cept for ducked grabs and aGas). I don't think any NM you have fought has actually tried such a strategy (also there is a distinct lack of good NMs in the US, excluding the new players). None of them (of the players you have fought) are even considered in the higher tier of NM players (cept for Lau or Omega(DR one) perhaps?).

Empty GS doesnt get shut down by 2A as well and a good NM should be putting so much pressure on the opponent that they will start to freeze. And 2A doesnt shut down all transitions. In reality NM is much harder to punish than his frames suggest due to the push back his moves give and the ability to space your NSS transitions to give you extra distance. This also makes shutting down his stances very problematic. Properly used GS (236236 into mixups) spam will lead to flinchs, headaches and freezes. Ive been on the receiving end of this and i understand full what its like. Had a marathon session against Shen Rii and the pressure he was putting me under was utterly intense.

Then Cass has a ton of trouble getting in against NM and the short range of her poke arsenal leads to NSS whiff punishes and mixups. Her gauge game is generally linear and though her throws are very strong, their short range makes them vulnerable to spacing. And any whiff by Cassy = launch by NM into 60-120 damage mixups (new stuff has been discovered recently which makes 33B an even stronger move than before). Also Cass's shield sticks out in much of her animations making NM's throw a sort of Kara throw against her, thereby increasing the range of NM's already impressive throw.

All the good NMs seem to be scattered all of the globe and leaving the US without any active good ones haha (not counting the new players like DIME etc).
 
Keev is just a brilliant player to begin with. It still doesn't change the fact that the matchup sucks against Cassandra.
 
Malice said:
Keev is just a brilliant player to begin with. It still doesn't change the fact that the matchup sucks against Cassandra.
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I dont think it sucks. Its just more difficult than most people imagine. If Cassy plays it close to NM and punishs his moves, she can easily compete and keep up in the damage.
 
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