To what extent...

Mojo

Mojo

[10] Knight
Do you believe that Natsu is OP? I personally don't find it to be true at all. I do think that some of her combos involving air throws do a little bit too much damage, but even that is kind of...not a big deal in the grand scheme. I'm just hearing a lot of people say it, both on here and online. Mostly online though. (Yes I know that is most of my answer right there.)

I can understand why some people who are new to the game (and even some that aren't) could think that she is a little too much. I mean she is basically Taki with easier execution. So the learning curve for people who mained Taki (like myself and I assume most people who will read this) is very small compared to other characters. Her move list is largely the same the only changes I had even minor difficulty getting used to was that stalker and wind roll are both mapped to B+K. And that didn't take long to get used to at all.

So what do you all think? I feel like most of the hate on Natsu will go away in time after people learn to deal with her and that said hate stems from the fact that there are a bunch of former Taki users out there with a character who is far easier on execution than her predecessor was so we can do more with her sooner.

I don't want her to be FotM...I really really don't want that.
 
Sorry, she's already FoTM. Her risk vs reward is incredible, she has some of the best counterhit launchers in the game(22k 6a+b) and she gets half life + wakeup after them. Her damage off of everything she does is really good and she's generally a safe character. Too safe for the damage that she does.
 
Natsu's definitely high tier (for now, until people figure her out), but I don't think she's top. Once people start playing more carefully, Natsu will have a lot less opportunities to deal out all that damage since most of the damaging stuff is from CH or bombs.

Watch out for bombs, CH 22K, iWS K, and learn not to tech, and her damage gets shut down.

Aside all this, I don't think she has good enough basics to compete with someone like Pyrrha, who can stab punish so many things natsu does.

Natsu's top tier VS idiots that mash buttons to get constantly CH'd, and tech happy people that don't know how to fight SC4 taki.

-ASZ
 
I'm with aku, I dont feel natsu is all that safe. It'll all change I feel once people grasp better understanding of natsu.
 
Her high-low mixup leaves a lot to be desired, thanks to her lack of abuseable lows. She also has a bit of trouble in neutral while attempting to get in. Her high damage tends to be situational at best. People just need to stop pressing buttons and getting hit by 4A+B. Game is new and people are still getting used to fighting her. She feels a lot more streamlined (read: easier) than Taki, so people may feel like Natsu is pretty strong, at the moment.
 
she's definitively top-tiers: unbelivable damages started by useful moves, incredible wake-up game, JG punish with A:6, excellent mid range mixup... his only lack is punish between -14 and -20, she got less damages than many characters
 
66B is a huge reason of her being top. It tech crouches (even under some mids) it's fast, it does great damage on its own, and even more if you BE it. It's -16 but it pushes back far enough that most characters can't reliably punish it except with maybe a BB. The BE version does heavy guard damage and is +6 on block. This move is nuts.

22_88B is also REALLY good. My only issue with this move honestly is the range. I'm constantly getting caught by the invisible tip of the hitbox of this move.

2A+B and 4A+B. 1 meter = over half your life gone from a fast or unblockable low with a very wide hitbox at that. The worst part about 4A+B is her ability to teleport immediately after it making it -3. Even jumping over 4A+B on reaction will not always net you a launcher due to how fast this move recovers. You have to pretty much anticipate and jump to make sure you get a 3B on landing.

PO 8B+G base damage is just too high. One of the main reasons her damage output is so ridiculous.

I'm really not sure what they were thinking making a character this fast, this safe, and doing THIS much damage. She should really be doing Leixia damage, not Nightmare damage.
 
66B is insanely punishable on block... ppl I play with already just punishes it too hard to really use it usefully other then to punish whiffs... 66B ABK also is HIGH, and when they see the lightening effect just automatically ducks and punishes...

2A+B, 4A+B everyone just jumps over it and punishes it... who cares if it does massive damage? 41236B does massive damage on hit and its UNBLOCKABLE WOO HOO! but who cares if you cant hit it?...

22_88B.... is ok?... dont think its anything great...
 
I'm with ASZ on his points. She thrives on counter hits and generally unsafe play from the opponent. I've been having a lot of trouble against my sparring buddies the moment they realize that I fish for that iWS K CH every chance I get... Like in every lull and every dead space I can throw in there. Eventually, it turns into a battle to get them grounded and Natsu in PO... You'd be surprised how difficult that can be accomplished when your opponent learns how to jump/block 4A+B on reaction, duck BK, consistently breaks throws and doesn't allow you to get CH WS K. Let's not even start with 2A+B. Everyone I play jumps that move if I mistime it.. Either that or they play dead and allow it to hit when they're grounded (bam, instant space and safety for them)
 
My friend is already learning to just block Natsu and wait for an opening. Like I said in another thread almost every SC game Taki/Natsu was considered broken till people figured out they should just block properly. Most of her damage comes from opponents just not being patient. Sure I get a free AA if I block Asta’s bull rush… but now I am in range of another bull rush and or throw.

Playing online tends to skew quite a bit. Where it is hard for an opponent to keep up with Natsu’s constant string of attacks. Going to try my best to stay offline.
 
-16 isn't even launch punishable by most characters. I wouldn't call that "insanely punishable"
Opyrrah can 236:B it, but she HAS to JF it to get the AT animation. All I get as Mitsu is B,B (or a CE if it's frame perfect.)

2/4A+B are punishable, yes...but barely (if at all?) launch punishable on reaction.

22_88B range is still pretty ridiculous because Natsu is supposed to be a short range character. I have no issues baiting out other characters launchers with Mitsu 4B. Natsu however, nope.

This character has so many good tools, and just outclasses a good portion of the cast in damage, speed, and safety. She is not unbeatable, but definitely has to make less correct decisions or punish less mistakes to kill you than other characters.
 
songohanx said:
snip... One of the main reasons her damage output is so ridiculous...
Click to expand...

to kill you
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You have no idea what you're talking about. It sounds like you are fighting a Natsu, not fighting as Natsu. I would be correct in assuming you are frustrated? That frustration is influencing your logic.

frost said:
I'm with ASZ on his points. She thrives on counter hits and generally unsafe play from the opponent. I've been having a lot of trouble against my sparring buddies the moment they realize that I fish for that iWS K CH every chance I get... Like in every lull and every dead space I can throw in there. Eventually, it turns into a battle to get them grounded and Natsu in PO... You'd be surprised how difficult that can be accomplished when your opponent learns how to jump/block 4A+B on reaction, duck BK, consistently breaks throws and doesn't allow you to get CH WS K. Let's not even start with 2A+B. Everyone I play jumps that move if I mistime it.. Either that or they play dead and allow it to hit when they're grounded (bam, instant space and safety for them)
Click to expand...

This guy does. If I had to wager she is going to pull off her best moves so rarely in the future that that damage is going to make a lot of sense.
 
I thought that Natsu was really OP the first two days when I played her, then people started blocking 66B and 4+AB.
Sure, she has good moves and is fast, but Natsu can only do good damage if the opponent messes up and gives Natsu a counter-hit. So far I havent seen any crazy damage on normal-hit
 
You would be correct to assume that I am fighting against Natsu. However, I've spent a good amount of time in training mode with her checking specific punishments on block, ranges on her moves, damage on her combos, etc. I didn't just get blown up by some random Natsu online and then decide to come bitch about it on the forum.

I am not claiming to know everything about Natsu, but everything I've posted is from actual testing, not conjecture.
 
I thought she was overpowered, but now I think it's just people don't know yet how to deal with her. I sometimes run across a rare good player online. And when I see that they know enough to jump my 2A+B, I know I'm gonna have a hell of a time beating them. They proceed to block and punish most everything I do. I guess I'm maybe 50% against people who know how to play, probably 90% against scrubs.
 
Natsu does really good burst damage. But like I said, shut down her CH department (and bombs), and her movelist gets really restricted.

The bad:
66B, -16 on block, stab punishable. (66B4 PO still -14? stab punishable depends on range?)
33_66_99AB, -16 on block, stab punishable. (PO afterwards is still stab punishable iirc).
A+B, -12 on block. Not sure if punishable by moves, depending on range? But A+B4 is -21 on block and is stab punishable.
6A+B, -15, stab punishable. 6A+B4 is -7 on block, but you're stuck in PO.
PO A6_A:6, both -14 stab punishable on block? Have itchy fingers that do 6A+B4 PO, PO A:6 blocked from habit and you get stabbed.
PO K, -21 on block, super stab punishable.
AAB, -14 on block, stab punishable.
AA6, -15 on block, stab punishable. (on hit, you're still at -3. WS K is i13/i14?)
A6 (A:6 too?), -14 on block, stab punishable. Mess up your A:6 punish and you get eaten.
1A, -26? on block, stab punishable.
BK.. the K is duckable on reaction no matter what you do.
BBK last hit duckable, only NCC.. no BBB so why be scared.
3KKK, -14 on block, stab punishable (?). 3KK WR, still stab punishable from block iirc. 3KK -10 on block.

The good:
4A+B, -16 on block, stab punishable.. but 4A+B6 makes it safe at -3. Means 4A+B6 (block), PO K may be uninterruptable unless it's possible to RCC with a fast AA? Punishing with Natsu's WS K trades with PO K in slight favor of the 4A+B6ing natsu. But against patient players that block PO K, you may get punished hard.
PO B, +8 on block.
6B, -6 on block.

Some of the frame data might not be right, but it's just to show how unsafe natsu can be. And once people know how to fight against her, and to NOT TECH, her options get really really restricted and she won't be able to do all that crazy damage from CH. Not disagreeing that she can be high tier because of her damage potential and abusing WS K (steppable, btw), but she gets away with things because people don't know how to fight her yet. All the things she got from SC4 taki are counterable by merely reacting (hover = useless VS smart people, for example.. PO B+K blockable on reaction.. people done it since SC2). Probably not top IMO, because of how unsafe she is.. and in the end, Natsu will have to take higher risk for that high reward, with the exception of a few moves (WS K, 4A+B6 PO).

Mitsu is pretty safe, and has amazing frames from what I hear. Pyrrha is just as solid, if not the most.. Xiba is tough as well. And after comparing them to Natsu, people say she's top tier? I don't think so.

@songohanx: Since you love 66B BE so much, here's something for you. The 2nd hit is high and you can duck it on reaction. Against people that just derpguard, it's the best move ever, I'm sure. Just like 1BA in SC4, taki's top tier when people don't duck that.

-ASZ
 
While we're on the subject....

AAB. The B is only guaranteed on CH AA? Or on any hit by AA? And can you punish between AA and B or only after B?
 
AAB is NCC. If you get hit by AA on NH, you can still block the B. You punish after blocking the B, cannot interrupt. Stab it, if you're Pyrrha. Makes natsu players feel great.

-ASZ
 
That's what I thought.

I was hoping you could maybe quickstep the B to get a backthrow or something, but I wasn't brave enough to try.
 
No, but look on the bright side. This completely shuts down her offensive pressure in using AA series unless Natsu knows for SURE that it will hit.

AAB is NCC, but AA is NC. She should be +2 after AA on hit, but:

AAB (hit by AA, not NCC so you can block the B), -14, stab punishable.
AA6 leaves her -3. From FC, WS K is her fastest move (i13/i14). Even if Natsu gets AA6 on hit, Pyrrha can stab natsu before WS K comes out (CH too).

Oh, and if you get hit by the last hit in AAB, whether or not it was on CH, it's neutral (+0). Don't be scared.

..So natsu has to take risk. Or play it safe by not doing anything, and staying +2 after AA NC.

Against a patient player that knows how to fight Natsu, it's really hard for natsu to get in and build pressure. Her standard tools are just so easily countered.. and the moves that she can actually "spam" are limited, and still counterable:

WS K - Step to Natsu's Right (SSL, Quickstep or normal step works) and punish Natsu. Pyrrha can stab Natsu after stepping WS K. In gimmick situations like 2A, WS K_Hover B (blocked), WS K.. this shuts down Natsu's FC game. Any time you see Natsu FC, quickstep to Natsu's right and block. If Natsu does WS K, you'll step it and be able to punish. If Natsu does WS A, since it's slower, you can quickstep and block it in time, eliminating both options from Natsu in FC. Be ready to break throws in case she tries that, and that's her FC game. You'll be able to step and block everything else..

4A+B6 - Safest transition into PO if they block the bomb. Natsu will probably use force-block situations for this. Because VS people familiar with Natsu, they'll jump-attack it on reaction.

-ASZ
 
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