Vader Tech Traps and Oki

Angrel-San

Angrel-San

[10] Knight
A thread for this.

Vader should have quite a few with his Force pullup 4A+B on grounded opponent and for tech traps, 3KB, 2B+K, 66B, 44B and 44B+K all seem pretty good.

Let's do some work.
 
He's got decent tech traps but it always seems like his wake up game is really lacking.

Oh, after, 8WR A+B, 2B+K...44B+K catches tech and launches. It catches every tech so it could be used after a lot of stuff, but not sure about it's usability because of 44B+K draining force a bit.

EDIT: I'm definitely liking it now, 8WR A+B, 2B+K, [tech] 44B+K relaunch, 2B+K, 3KB about a half life bar (99 dmg I think) for less than half to 1/3 of the force gauge.
 
After B+G A+B grab 44B catches all side rolls, grounded and low block. Just insert favorite low for simple mixup. Damage won't wow anyone but its there.
 
44B+K catchs all tech and grounded after any 2B+K on face down grounded opponent so not only what swoops mentions above but:

/edit/ Apparently some people can tech out to vaders right here. For those characters you might want to vary the trap with 66B/33B/wait33B+K which will all cover that side (and still hit grounded).

44B+K > 2B+K > 2B+K > 44B+K
3B+K > 33B+K > 2A+B > 2B+K > 44B+K
WS B+K > 2B+K > 44B+K basically all do the same thing. They require more force though so be warned. Followup on launch will be different depending on how much you have left as well.

/edit/ 22B > 44B+K works here too. Thanks to Ceirnian.
/edit/ 44B+K > wait > 44B+K as well.

Also of some interest if you start close enough
3B > 2[A+B] catches all techs and grounded
11B > RCC > 2[A+B] catches all techs and grounded
1A+B > 2[A+B] catches all techs and grounded

Whether they chose to get up or not it leads to...
2[A+B] > 44B catchs all techs and grounded
with a similar distance constraint.

The follow is just a gimmick:
Whenever you catch opponent out of the air with 2A+B or 2B+K, 1A+B will defeat anything they attempt to do except stay on the ground. You give up guaranteed damage and if opponent knows they can't tech or hit you fast enough it wont work, but we all know how much damage one gets off 1A+B so it seemed noteworthy.
Ways to set this up include 33B+K > 2A+B 44B+K > 2B+K 44BA+BG > 2B+K and of course catching a jumper.

3B+K > 44BA+BG > 2B+K > Stand > 1A+B > Tech > 2[A+B] > Tech > 44B > 4A+B6A+B 201
If that doesnt convince someone to stay on the ground for your 4A+Bs, I dont know what will.
 
meh, sometimes I catch people with an A+B, or even 1A+B if I'm lucky, off of Force Parry B... especially if they're close to the edge...
 
Suirad said:
44B+K catchs all tech and grounded after any 2B+K on face down grounded opponent so not only what swoops mentions above but:

44B+K > 2B+K > 2B+K > 44B+K
3B+K > 33B+K > 2A+B > 2B+K > 44B+K
WS B+K > 2B+K > 44B+K basically all do the same thing. They require more force though so be warned. Followup on launch will be different depending on how much you have left as well.

Also of some interest if you start close enough
3B > 2[A+B] catches all techs and grounded
11B > RCC > 2[A+B] catches all techs and grounded
1A+B > 2[A+B] catches all techs and grounded

Whether they chose to get up or not it leads to...
2[A+B] > 44B catchs all techs and grounded
with a similar distance constraint.

The follow is just a gimmick:
Whenever you catch opponent out of the air with 2A+B or 2B+K, 1A+B will defeat anything they attempt to do except stay on the ground. You give up guaranteed damage and if opponent knows they can't tech or hit you fast enough it wont work, but we all know how much damage one gets off 1A+B so it seemed noteworthy.
Ways to set this up include 33B+K > 2A+B 44B+K > 2B+K 44BA+BG > 2B+K and of course catching a jumper.

3B+K > 44BA+BG > 2B+K > Stand > 1A+B > Tech > 2[A+B] > Tech > 44B > 4A+B6A+B 201
If that doesnt convince someone to stay on the ground for your 4A+Bs, I dont know what will.
Click to expand...


Awesome work, Suirad!!!
 
I'm finally sittin' down and learning more of Vader's moves.

22_88B 1A catches side tech.

2[A+B] 4B at a distance catches all tech. However it has charcter-specific issues. Ex. Amy can escape it with right tech no matter what. Voldo can left tech it unless you delay it slightly.

236[A+B] after moves (like WS B+K) only catches back tech. Ewww I say.
 
44B+K traps into delayed 11B all but right

WR B+K traps into 11B all but right. 66b catches all but right as well

22B traps into 66B all but right

3b tech traps into 66b (delay) all but right


His right side seems pretty weak for some of this, didn't test too many more options since I've been testing stuff all day with Oof / Dully / Suirad. I'll check out some more stuff later.
 
Suirad said:
Doing it on raph they catch opposite sides, I dont know who you were testing it on but that might end up being a worthwhile trap yet.
Click to expand...

Oh yeah thats right, after that whole new combo thing I forgot about my findings on Raph. Hmm suppose I'll have to test each character.
 
babalook said:
3B+K TECH 236A+B catches all directions learn to love it
Click to expand...
Actually, they can escape that one by teching to the right. But aside from it looking cool, I don't see much point in that tech trap since he's got much better options for both damage and RO that use less force.
 
ya i was guna edit my post cause i realised it was wrong but the tech trap is rather pointless considering that you could go for garenteed better stuff.
i found a few tech traps but these are near wall only
8B on a grounded opponent and 1B catches all and the 8B can be put into combo such as
44Ba+bG 2A+B 8/9B(depending on distance) tech 1B
Now 11B works in the same combo above instead of 8B but the tech trap is FC 2A giving you +2 giving to pretty damn good mixups considering you could do a i15 throw or or a i13 FC A+B

The reeason the 8B one is usefull is cause it's faster meaning you could use it in this combo 66B 1BA W! 8B 1B or and othe wall splats you dont mind cutting short :)

Oh i enjoy this to 44Ba+bG 2A+B tech 1A+B cannot be beaten out and if you know the time that they have to tech and you see the dont you can cancel it for a good wakeup kinda thing
 
Babalook:

last one you mentioned can also be done off of 3B+K into 44B~ A+BG 2A+B tech..there is more you can hit but you would be using that much more force to do so, and 1b also works as last hit to tech trap after 2A+B with good timing, and with that mentioned ...


Also when you wanna save some force meter for later high damage combo's (or just low on it but enough to get at least 1 force move) here is a tech trap that works anywhere even without walls is:

66A+K nh/ch(at any range it hits) ...along with 66a/33_99a(ch only) into 1b(requires a small dash in to close up gap for the 1b to hit, and if get the airborne opponent with 2A+B slight hold or quick releasing it, you also get 1b tech trap all directions(even stand guard off the ground) same for the 66A+K variants..

*Note* that if you do the 2A+B version into 1b tech trap... the timing you cannot just throw it out there it has some strict timing to it so learn it good, which i found then makes the like of 3K,B/4A+B force lift/2A+B max hold for forcing opponent into crouch block work better and more for OTG games being all around better ..which then makes 1A+B force unblockable catch that much more dangerous, i say catch coz they can roll left/right OTG and get away from it, and that's the beautiful of it, coz that's when 3K,B and other OTG moves will hit.

Also keep in mind that when you do the 1A+B(non F.C. version because there is no true mix-up damage from F.C version) catch(but you decide to cancel it to mix it up) you are at a slight disadvantage if its not done starting from a blocked force cancel move i.e. 44B~g F.C. WRA~g F.C./ 88_22+B~g F.C. etc... there is no true mix-up outta doing 1A+B alone at that point by itself; only small mind games(even with the cancel from 1A+B), what i mentioned with good timing is a true mix-up surrounding 1b tech trap.. so with the the 1b tech trap being there eventually( and after eating on OTG hitting moves as mentioned) , your opponent will stand only to think they will only eat 1b small tech trap damage and then eat the 1A+B catch will hit(remember this, that 1A+B hits ONLY guaranteed from stand up off the ground roll back/roll forward the 1A+B connects).. and there is the beauty of that as well coz the other OTG moves WILL hit them and that's when the fun/mental anguish really begins :)..<< this part for 1A+B more so after any airborne type stun from 2A+B (electrical version).

Edit: wanted to also mention that after 66A+B variants into 2B+K 1b tech traps also along with 3b into 2A+B(also with 2A+B max hold ch/nh by itself) into 1b slight dash in(the ch one you don't slight dash just wait and time 1b from the 2A+B max hold), *NOTE*.. though the 3b one(i think OOF may have mentioned it at one point is pretty tricky to hit other than 44b tech trap, so its not that important to hit this version from 3b nh/ch its kinda range dependent so ..but with all these you get that same stun effect for the 1b(and don't forget to time your 1b a bit here too) and there is nothing they can do but take guaranteed mix-up damage that i mentioned above once any of these things connect and you have them at your side..er um..DARK SIDE ;)

Edit2: for the 66A+K. 1b tech trap you need to dash right into their face immediately after 66A+K hits( right into 1b/ throw range) and knowing when they can tech is very important otherwise your gonna rush the 1b too early , knowing this; that should help a bit.
 
JustKill said:
66A+K nh/ch(at any range it hits) ...along with 66a/33_99a(ch only) into 1b(requires a small dash in to close up gap for the 1b to hit, and if get the airborne opponent with 2A+B slight hold or quick releasing it, you also get 1b tech trap all directions(even stand guard off the ground) same for the 66A+K variants..
Click to expand...


K, wanted to add something that just kinda hit me off the top...


also along with the 1b tech trap part after these variations of attacks on hit...if they choose to not get up into the 1b tech..Vader gets a guaranteed force lift into force pull mix-up/combos(ONLY if they believe your going to 1b).. so they lay on the ground or try rolling(in fear of the 1b tech trap and advantage it gives Vader)..be careful and mindful though, they can get up and block it if they believe your going to follow through with it and not use the 1b tech trap..(and 1b on NH is plenty enough for Vader to take control of the match no prob)....yes confusing but true... basically they cannot react properly to this exact situation, they can get lucky..but then your prob leaving out a good chunk of the other wakes mind games to make it successfully work.

So then all the other stuff that i posted in my prior post above can still be used as wakes and mind games..so regardless of what you use (just be smart with the mix-up) you still get a nasty lil' mind game handed to Vader...and a great gap closer that can force them even closer to the edge for a possible force lift/air toss variant(a la OOF) combos for RO.
 
I didn't really go through all of your post, JustKill, because no offense but I find your style of writing difficult to read, but from what I got, I don't see a reason to go for a 1B tech trap after 66A+K/CH 33_66_99A, since the 4A+B force pickup is guaranteed right after. And even if you don't have any force for that you can get 66B for free. And if you do want to go for a tech trap instead of guaranteed damage, you can do something like 66A+K -> dash forward -> 3B+K, which will catch back and left techroll.

I think in most cases there are better options for tech traps than 1B.
 
hmmm..

learning the timing for the 1b just takes a bit of practice to be pracitcal game strat...but, the 1b grant Vader a "closer" option for him to get in and allows for other of his great moves to play as well perfectly in that range, i know this as well as you do, so knowing the options you just mentioned are already a well known factor, i was adding options to his "available" known options..and yea i like the 3B+K as well, though players catch on to that to much for the simple reason of it leading to too a crap load of damage and heavy potential RO, its slow enough so they will then stand up safely if you whiff it, and in return punish you for it...which lead me to working with things with 1b in this manner..

just doing something as simple as 1b leads which is free tech trap/catch on any direction tech, even so, simple damage still giving Vader the offense pressure and tactics, and still get a sweet gap closer on RO stages for when you do have force meter or dont have it but wanna close the gap anyways and STILL get the chance for a RO wioth very low amount of force meter(*there should always be a decent amount of force the total set matches if it can be helped, cant do anything about it from that point), now if they don't tech OOF, then you have a free 4A+B lift pick up to combo+wakes+ potential RO or delay (for ground and stand up pressure)...


which is in case if they don't get up into the 1b, I actually like it a lot because it can also create a nice post GI position +free 1b hit advantage, and a neat way to add 1b into his game instead of the same 'ol routine for offense with it, so it does help whether you believe it or not or just didn't understand/see it.. basically what i was adding is that it keeps everything fresh so nothing is predictable and flowing offense game from the go with some added texture if you will+mad mind games and plenty of options.. and its always better imo to have plenty of open options for him and a huge ass gap closer with out just draining his force meter immediately , and we wouldn't want to see Vader with out that or getting stale/ predictable, that would be unwise. :)
 
Ok... gonna add in some new Vader tech./tech traps for you lady's 'n germs to fiddle with. 1st and 2nd tech traps covered here starts from the WSB+K, 2B+K, 3K,B combo... if you leave out the ending 3K,B part you will have a TON of options to work with between tech traps/wake up/mind games/footsie's etc, here we go...

#1: G~N+4,4b into 1b,a combo/VFC variations...the beginning part will give the impression that you are stopping your last hit of the combo(which you are) but adding in the G cancel shows your opponent that you want to go into guard state, and gives them the impression of being able to get up and block or toss out a move in retaliation for safety or a comeback...guess what?!, not happening... even though you go into guard state, Vader is still able to connect by following up with n+4,4+b for tech trap launch into 1b,a combo/VFC options and then into more wake up/footsie pressure. this is a great tool in any match up for Vader(gotta love those Vader Jedi mind tricks!)

WHY is it G~n+4,4+b instead of G~4,4+b/G,4,4+b you ask?... well, I am here to guide you...this can work 2 ways on certain characters(though not very important, its good to know you can add it in) and the latter 2 versions simply implies you are basically mash buffering from the G directly into the 4,4+b( basically meaning without any neutral state in between the G into 4,4+b part), an example would be holding guard button and while holding you are mash buffering in the initial "4" direction the whole time( ex: while holding G your doing 4,4,4,4,4,4+b to mash hit for the tech trap) DON'T DO THIS( I explain in detail of why in the *NOTE*/3 part *NOTE* and the *Cons sections below a bit more) because you will just hit them grounded if done to early/late...it actually screws up the timing for the N+4,4+b tech trap/launcher "sike out" version, so instead of trying to get it that way(which I'm sure everyone would have been doing) make it "~n+4" DIRECTLY AFTER the G state ends, not starts (you will see Vader's elbow flinch upward while holding the saber indicating you have entered into guard state just enough to see him enter block/guard state, and reverse when you leave it)... and without any kind of human flawed mistakes, motions or jerks, you get a clean launcher just as you leave guard state... remember that mash buffering actually screws up the timing and you will miss it more so than actually connecting it. So PRACTICE this, so it helps it lead into an accurate timed move that launches into a small combo/and or VFC variants(which would be normal 4,4b without any extra previous input)....this tech trap version is both optional/character dependent at the same time(CHECK BELOW FOR A FURTHER UNDERSTANDING OF WHY THIS IS IN ALL "3" PART *NOTE* SECTIONS FOLLOWING THE VERY 1ST *NOTE* SECTION )

*Pros: tech trap launches all but left/back(CHANGES DEPENDING ON CHARACTER SPECIFIC HIT BOX/ TECH ROLL CUE'S)... EX: try on Voldo in practice mode to understand, his tech roll directions are different from most others, meaning if it "appears" to hit others tech rolling right, it will "appear" that it hits him(Voldo) tech rolling left so hit the practice mode and learn the false appearance of them all...over all this leads into one of these 2 options, 1b,a combo/and or 4,4b~ VFC(tech trap launcher) option.

*Cons: does NOT tech trap launch left on ALL characters(again, check your match up for the appearance of tech roll abilities, just so you don't say "WTF?!, i saw him tech right, but it didn't hit/launch him?!" situation...check on characters with small body hit boxes to be sure if your using the G~N version OR the regular straight into normal 4,4b tech trap version.

*NOTE* any time you use ANY Vader VFC(Vader Force Cancel) moves over all, use ONLY the the "1" direction cancel(s), you use less Force meter as supposed to using the "N"(neutral) cancel versions that waste a ton more of meter in comparison(this helps you control and use Force meter with better management the best as far as the VFC's go).

I also wanted to mention that i talked about this in Vader combo's thread(the initial combo at top of this post for the best guaranteed overall combo damage from that starter(though i didn't really mention why...but i am now and now your going to know why), and OOFMATIC had also mentioned about the 4,4b tech trap option in the same thread, just had to clear up though, it DOESN'T tech trap launch in all directions..ONLY certain characters it can...for example: nightmare can get launched by it tech rolling any direction(s), and Amy for example cannot tech it to her left either... though some can tech it clean, so he was only partially correct and I'm not taking that away from him( IF there is any other character(s) in the game that DOES get hit by it in all directions, it a character like Nightmare... hit practice mode to find out who they are)... study/check all of the characters in practice mode before applying it into your game...Nightmare is a prime examples character of which 4,4b is the version to use, use normal 4,4b INSTEAD of G~N+4,4b and hits ALL directions on him...remember this, and adding in the G(versus the characters it allows you to on) just gives you that added "sike out" option, so remember you can still use the 4,4b tech trap without adding in guard on ANY character, just some characters allow you to(for whatever reason) hit guard before hitting your launcher, where as some do not NOT allow and use only 4,4b without the G~N

Now tech trap option ending #2...

# 2: G~N+3B+K(Vader's force enhanced lunging mid attack, 3B+K)...this is one of his greatest close/mid range tools that leads into a number of options, whether it'd be a full combo or small combo into heavy lock down pressure(with some free damage) games/mix ups...I shouldn't have to explain as it shares the very same reason(s) of the G~N+4,4+b tech trap, and why its G~N+3B+K instead of G~3B+K etc, trust in me... there is a difference whether you see it or not...it will always accurately connect 100% off the time as long as you do it as i mentioned( for tech trap #2).

Going to interject my post for a few with a "3" part *note* series so you can all understand everything and not mess yourselves up in certain character match ups between using 4,4b tech trap starter and(or/and also)- G~N+4,4b

*NOTE* #1: the G~N for both tech traps only pertain to the tech trap starters, once done, any follow up should be back to their normal versions i.e. 3B+K or 4,4b as the example being the normal inputs without the G~N+ added to them, unless its against the characters it allows for it as i mentioned or going to be mentioned.

*NOTE* #2: the reason i am mentioning about using G~N; it works on a decent portion of the cast, some characters like Nightmare for example have a unique hit box where his body is kinda small and can squeeze his tech roll out pretty quick without getting launched by G~N+4,4b,(whichever direction he techs) it just enables him to tech a bit quicker than others, so with him JUST use the 4,4b WITHOUT the G~N+ input so it DOES hit him in all directions ...because like i was saying some characters have those hit box advantages/properties at certain times...like Voldo tech rolling to the right but gets tech rolling left properties etc, be sure to check ALL characters, and make sure you don't step backwards at all during the time just before using the 4,4b(without the G~N) tech trap, you will just get the ground hit without the launch and if delayed, same outcome...just takes a bit of practice, OOFMATIC mentioned about the 4,4b hitting only grounded if delayed or done too quick in the combo thread(check last or second to last page on it), and as I am mentioning now, learning the characters hit box/tech rolling speed properties are KEY in understanding it all as far as knowing who it will hit and who it wont(as far as the 4,4b tech trap goes when it comes to hitting all tech), it's not so much with Vader in that regard.

*NOTE* #3: you MUST keep in mind...adding the G~N+ part ONLY gives the illusion of you going into defense mode(block mode) which you do go into block, but for a brief moment for trickery, and as mentioned, you MUST check ALL characters to be sure of which ones you can use it on (i believe you can do this to Amy with both the G~N+4,4b and just plain N, 4,4b versions) though at the same time she is one of the characters that CANNOT tech roll the 4,4b tech trap to her left, and as said, others can tech it clean, but over all...the ones you can use both on you just get that extra edge of surprise by getting the G in before they can tech giving you the block state effect and still get your tech traps as mentioned, its a sneaky added animation with the illusion that you cant get anything guaranteed following block state(*Character dependent, though more then less of the cast) it is tricky timing whenever adding the G~N+ into the 4,4b tech trap, so again, practice if you want that tricky block mode "sike out"!!...1 more thing in this section i want to add is that any time vs ANY character, you can ALWAYS use G~N+ ONLY before using the 3B+K tech trap combo starter out of the 2 traps im discussing, now back tech trap #2 Pros and Cons....

*Pros: tech traps ALL directions except right( Once again check all characters hit box/tech abilities so you don't visually screw yourself)... just remember that it reverses for some when they tech and it will "appear" they tech rolled one direction when they actually share another tech roll direction property like Voldo as mentioned) so you get them to connect correctly... THIS tech trap leads into a 4,4b launch combo/VFC options or 6b,b~VFC options(since once the tech trap hits, they are in a over/keel stun leading to said follow ups, both being guaranteed) just remember that anything that follows after 6B,b~g~a+b(VFC) or 4,4b launch combo( this mention is for the tech trap #2 since it starts with 3B+K) its heavy pressure/mind games mix ups as per usual, nothing is guaranteed after other than those said options aside from lots of mix ups since 6B,b~g~a+b(VFC) follow ups are shake block-able

*Cons: other than it not tech trapping to the right, it also uses a bit of force meter in the process, the upside to the Con is that it leads to great damage potential and very good force meter recovery... however, the down side to it is that if you don't know how to manage your force meter and you waste it on not needed area's or you blasted through it using more than half of it in the process; this is not the move you want to be using with poor meter management, whether it'd be from the tech trap or all by itself in game play...Now If you have a full meter it is THE best, for it uses less( and in 3B+K's case, you can't VFC out of it, so it will always use more meter than none)...BUT, the trick is the more meter you have(closest to/completely full), the less a force enhanced move(whether its VFC-able or not) will always take less from the meter entirely...this another little trick helps out with meter management as well as using the "1" direction i mentioned for VFC ex: use 6B,b~g,a+b(VFC)+"1" instead of using the latter version 6B,b~G,a+b(VFC)~ "N", which in fact uses more meter opposed to the 1st one mentioned which is better in over all force meter management.

Ok so, those are Vader's 2 BEST options for tech traps into combo damage... after WS+B+K, 2B+K, just add the overall damage done between that and the tech traps(and the guaranteed follow damage from either tech trap) and you get a nice chunk of damage dished out onto your opponent.

Over all sum up of why/how this all works the way it does...when not using the full WSB+K, 2B+K,( 3K,B ending of combo)into tech trap, you're leaving them a "sike out"(fake option) option to stand up into safety, get away or a retaliation attempt, only way they can EVER have any chance is if you do not follow up with the tech traps #1 and #2 or the full combo at top of this post(meaning just stand there and hold guard for that split second you would before the tech traps, allowing them to try something...but in this case without the tech traps followed by what allows you to do) it ALSO works on small tech traps such as(using the discussed incomplete version of the combo at top of post without the 3K,B ending)...is G~N~4b ( 4b, his other mid hitting saber lunge attack) which catches left tech mostly...everything mentioned so far leads you all together(Vader player)into a full on offense with complete control from all parts of however you choose to end it and them(opponent), into a plethora of mind hurting mistakes/screw ups and things to think about/and or some kind of huge mistake they could make which you can either A: step,(or step punish an attempt to attack you) B: guard and punish(if its punishable on block of course) and C: block into safety...<< 3 of the main options you have at your control whenever you don't go through with the tech traps...

...None of those just last mentioned aren't in any specific order mind you, but more importantly it adds/gives you that block mode "sike out" effect I've been mentioning, the G~N+(sike out) ISN'T so important to use before the traps as the tech traps themselves are more important, because remember you can do them all without the "sike out" effect, on ALL characters... if they don't think you will do the full combo OR the tech traps, OR just wait to step/punish their attempt at attacking you OR block into safety and THEN punish a punishable move attempt that has great start up priority(Sophie 236B comes to mind for punish and TAS B comes to mind when you want to step punish)....

Overall you are still left with a complete Vader mind screw/match controlling advantage over them( you can still gain this all WITHOUT the use of the tech traps or use of 3K,B combo ender)... and the best part is(aside from the damage you can get from the tech traps), you control the match the ENTIRE time from this point on, there is NOTHING they can do unless you allow them a chance to, well short of just laying on the ground and eating free ground hitting move damage(LOL)...my head hurts from all the typing, and sorry if i went VERY deep into detail on all of this, but it was needed and unavoidable as far as understanding it all, these 2 tech traps ARE the best options for both damage/match control...more to come on character specifics that pertain to these 2 tech traps and which ones you can add the G~N+(sike out) trick on... and some more mind blowing(force meter friendly) tech traps covered....

EDIT: for the 4,4b tech trap, it also tech trap launches back tech as well, however you cannot follow up with 1b,a combo on all characters, just some of them...so an example character it does not give you the 1b,a follow up would be Lizard Man... I will be covering ALL characters mostly for the 4,4b tech trap mentioned in this post; in the next post...
 
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