Why Mitsurugi's 'Relic' stance must be reinstated

ChaosK said:
Relic is a reminiscence of past soulcalibur games, where the series wasn't as defined. Movelists were full of a lot of useless moves. You have to understand, that having lots of useless moves, is in itself bad game design. So coolness factor alone is indeed not sufficient enough to justify its continued existence
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So us Relic fanboys are really just hooked on bad game design?? huh?

Wow , useless moves... so the implication here is that the "Relic Stance" and its associated moves were useless? rly? Right.... and who gets to decide what useless is?

This my friend , is exactly my point. One man's trash, is another man's treasure. One man's set of useless moves is another man's get-er-done-and-when-in-trouble-got-to-have-list. Yes., Yes., Yes., I know players who can bare a loss a lot easier if they go out in style. ChaosK, it is hard to see the forest for the trees, you guys forget what it was like to first pick up the game, and the excitement of finding a character that you liked, and learning a few cool moves to show off with. Or the feeling of not playing the game for while, and then buying the newest version and the comfort of finding your character is still there and he still has those kewl moves you were able to pull off.

I can admit that not every player sees SC the same way I do. But I think it is very hard for high level players or tournament types to admit that their way of valuing what should and should not be in the game, is not the only valid approach to determing the game's content. I guess IdleMind's point of trying to some how bridge the gap is all that's left, but I worry that the gap is just too wide. The Relic Stance 'useless' OMG! How do we bridge the gap between players that think that Relic is useless and those that think it is fundamentally necessary? LOL


I wish there was some kind of way we could take a vote on PSN an XBL. Taking a vote on game forums won't work because most loyal(but casual) players are not even aware of sites like 8way run. If there were some way we could deliver the survey over PSN or XBL, we would have a much better chance of finding out what the majority says about removing stances, movelists, and characters from the game.
 
ChaosK said:
Well when people say a move is useless, its meant as in the character has another move that does the same but better, rendering it obsolete. This is what people dislike.
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I actually can understand, how removing redundancy or how optimizing the movelist might be a legtimate goal. No problem there. And I do understand your basic point. "Clean up the movelists and feature the most effective moves"

But!!! I am somewhat a student of FG in general. And over many years I've observed that you can get 10 ppl using the same character in 10 different ways. All the way from noobs to very high level players. I've seen players who only use certain moves for
rythmn, they never intend the move to connect it is just used as a setup for another move, while other players use that same move as their bread and butter attack, while still yet others use the same move strickly for mind games. Where once they have their opponent thinking they won't use it, then they do! Looking at two moves on paper, counting frames, evaluating the moves dis advantage if blocked, or advantage if landed etc. and then deciding whether one should surplant the other, does not account for how players actually use the move in real game play. Of course if you study thousands of vids of players in countless tourneys, and exhibitions, you might be able to see enough of a pattern to choose which move between two given moves is inferior and should be dropped, but then you would be making the decision based on data/observation taken of high level players, tournament-types, not based on loyal(but casual) players who tend not to post vids of their matches. Unless you believe loyal (but casual players) or other non high level players post lots of vids of their matches!

ChaosK, that's exactly why I made my appeal to reinstate Mitsurugi's Relic Stance and its associated moves, based on Mitsurugi's claim on being a Samurai, not on how effective (or ineffective) the move is in actual Game play. TBH, its been my experience that any move in SC can be proven to be useful or useless (depending on the player that's using the move and who the player's opponent is). In other words my fighting style alone can make moves that usually seem useless, extremely effective. Vice versa the moves that everyone agrees should be used in a certain situation, might not be worth cat poop to me. To even suggest otherwise is to insinuate that there is only one right way to use a character and his movelist( and we both know that's untrue).

My argument is that Relic is one of the five basic stances of the Samurai as Miyamoto Musashi describes them in his famous Book of Five Rings under the Scroll of water. Why would we remove one of the five basic stances of the Samurai, regardless to whether it is ineffective, redundant, or whatever. A Samurai without his five basic stances, is like a Fencer without his touche.... Some moves need to be in the game if for no other reason than cliche , tradition and audience expectation. If numerically the move is useless then change it so that its useful, but don't remove it, especially if its one of the five stances of the Samurai, especially if the move has ICON status in Samurai Folklore :-)
 
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Musashi Miyamoto also didn't write the Book of Five Rings so that some dilettante could continually spew what little information he learned in his Kendo/Kenjutsu 101 class to attempt to impress people on an 8wr forum... So why do you continue to post here?

SinseiPo;
  1. there's no reason to continue remaking posts that just repeat what you have said
  2. Mitsurugi is a character designed to appeal to samurai fans, not to give a realistic representation of a samurai
  3. you are embarrassing yourself. stop.
 
d_b said:
Musashi Miyamoto also didn't write the Book of Five Rings so that some dilettante could continually spew what little information he learned in his Kendo/Kenjutsu 101 class to attempt to impress people on an 8wr forum..
So why do you continue to post here?

SinseiPo;
  1. there's no reason to continue remaking posts that just repeat what you have said
  2. Mitsurugi is a character designed to appeal to samurai fans, not to give a realistic representation of a samurai
  3. you are embarrassing yourself. stop.
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1) d_b, d_b alas d_b Fascinating.,. I'm embarrassing myself? Ahem... Since we are all on the Internet, with a certain amount of anonymity, exactly what is being embarrassed my avatar? and speaking of anonymity, you have no idea what my relationship to
Kendo/Kenjutsu is dilettante or otherwise, LOL so my friend, if anyone's avatar is being embarassed, perhaps a little introspection is in order.

2) I continue to post, because I'm am politely responding to others that have posted questions or comments in this thread. From where I'm from its rude not to respond when someone asks you a question or gives a comment that merits response. Perhaps in your avatar's world, there are no manners. Fortunately in mine there are. Given that you can read, I assume so much, then you should be aware that with every post along with answering a question or responding to someone else's comment I also clarify my point. You know, making it keener, and sharper, not just mere repetition.

3) In term's of impressing ppl on 8wr forum, again, assuming a certain amount of anonymity who is my avatar trying to impress? LOL and what does he have to gain if he is successful.... ROFLMAO. Again I think a quiet but intense moment of introspection is due on your part.

4) d_b, just a small recommendation., it would be wise, to think about what you're going to post (a least for a little while) b4 you actually post it! You said:


"Mitsurgi is a character designed to appeal to samurai fans, not to give a realistic representation of a samurai"

Do tell my friend, exactly how do you appeal to samurai fans unless something, somewhere is a least reminiscent of a real samurai? LOL. In fact the more realistic samurai-ish stuff you give to the samurai fans, the more you will appeal to them!

Perphaps you meant to post that Mitsurugi was not meant to be an 100% accurate simulation or facsimile of a real samurai. To which I would respond "I agree" But to the extent that PS did give him Samurai-like garb, Samurai-like hair styles, Samurai-like weapons, Samurai-like vernacular, Samurai-like ( Five Stances & Attack) all in the name of "appealing to samurai fans", then why drop his Samuria-like "Relic Stance" that his "samurai fans adored so much?" LOL

You see d_b, I'm not remaking the same post over and over, In each post (if you read carefully) I am responding, and clarifying things, for young gamers like yourself ;-) Your contribution to this thread was to inform me that Mitsurugi's character was made to appeal to Samurai fans, and was not meant to be 100% accurate simulation therefore I should lay off of the reinstate Relic mantra.. You would actually be on to something if I were asking PS to give Mitsurugi a stance and moves that he never had. I would be trying to get them to give him a realism that was never there before. To the contrary that's not the case my friend, I'm asking PS to restore a-kind-of realism that PS had already given him. A stance that has already been in several versions of SC a stance that was "appealing to samurai fans" A stance that PS (for whatever reason) chose to take away?
 
To an extent, mitsu represents the typical samurai.

I think what you fail to realize and what others have been trying to tell you, is that while they designed him around the samurai concept, decisions over move-set changes have much more to do with gameplay balance than they do with accurate representations of classical warriors.

By cutting out most of the obsolete moves, this bridges the gap from noob to pro simply because noobs aren't gonna waste their time with much crap anymore. It's kinda like they get right to the point and quickly, without having to memorize 120+ moves.

And even though they cleaned up the crap immensely, unfortunately many characters still have some garbage that needs to be thrown away, or tweaked to become useful.

SC has had balance problems in the past, or at least much more severe than it is now. The more moves you have, the harder it is to balance the game. Rather than trying to spend countless man-hours trying to "fix" all the shitty moves so that they are no longer shit, it was far smarter of them to spend that energy just focusing on the meat and potatoes. Now the game is more balanced than it ever has been.

A balanced game with a short move list (to me) is a lot more fun and rewarding than an unbalanced game with a shit ton of moves. To me it's the lesser of 2 evils.
 
It's this type of blind narcissism that gives casual players such a bad rap... No wonder most tournament players hold such disdain for the likes of the "lighter side of SC".

SinseiPo; I'm blushing from the shear embarrassment I've accrued from merely taking part in your flame-war. Certain amounts of anonymity or not, everyone knows that behind every avatar is another human being; with that I rescind my earlier aggression. Clearly you have zealousness about you for your perceived status as a kendoka and that which relates. I see nothing wrong in that, (and I personally love Kendo) but ill leave you with this parting advice-- When playing a video game (or doing anything fantastical), suspend your disbeliefs.

*For the record, I fucking LLOOVVEED Relic and I would thoroughly enjoy seeing it return.

-no need to respond.. Ill not think of it as being rude.
 
ChaosK said:
Relic is a reminiscence of past soulcalibur games, where the series wasn't as defined. Movelists were full of a lot of useless moves. You have to understand, that having lots of useless moves, is in itself bad game design. So coolness factor alone is indeed not sufficient enough to justify its continued existence.

On the other hand, when a move appeals to a lot of people due to visuals, it could motivate the developers to find a way to include relic and make it worthwhile. So its not like it doesnt matter.


I would play neither of them because both is horrible.


Its definitely a game of skill. I can see how less experienced players would think differently but the more proficient you become, the less random your game will be. Its all about maximizing your risk/reward.


Well viability is meant as in how efficient the move is.
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damn-I-Suck said:
To an extent, mitsu represents the typical samurai.

I think what you fail to realize and what others have been trying to tell you, is that while they designed him around the samurai concept, decisions over move-set changes have much more to do with gameplay balance than they do with accurate representations of classical warriors.

By cutting out most of the obsolete moves, this bridges the gap from noob to pro simply because noobs aren't gonna waste their time with much crap anymore. It's kinda like they get right to the point and quickly, without having to memorize 120+ moves.

And even though they cleaned up the crap immensely, unfortunately many characters still have some garbage that needs to be thrown away, or tweaked to become useful.

SC has had balance problems in the past, or at least much more severe than it is now. The more moves you have, the harder it is to balance the game. Rather than trying to spend countless man-hours trying to "fix" all the shitty moves so that they are no longer shit, it was far smarter of them to spend that energy just focusing on the meat and potatoes. Now the game is more balanced than it ever has been.

A balanced game with a short move list (to me) is a lot more fun and rewarding than an unbalanced game with a shit ton of moves. To me it's the lesser of 2 evils.
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I agree with all those points. A large list is fine if every move had a viable role. Great players don't use moves that are pointless. Example: Mitsu use to have 2 versions of 4B, one with Double Over stun & one with knock back. Which would you prefer? I would go for the 4B that has the knock back. As for Relic stance it was only good when Mitsu's 33_99 in SCII hits then you use RLC B and in SCIII you could use both RLC A or B.
 
If loyal casuals only care for the extra modes, pretty pictures and dress-up, then the trimming of movesets isn't, notably, one of their biggest concerns.

Therefore, moveset alterations should be tailored to the competitive players, no?

As a "loyal casual" myself, I've actually enjoyed this game more than any other. Sure, the lack of individual story modes sucks, and yes I lost my main, but hey, I'm not a tourney player so what do I care? I miss Amy, but I've picked up Leixia and Cervantes, so it's fine. Easier, in fact, because there's less learning.

As Idle was saying, this game is designed to bridge the gap. What you also have to take into account is that Daishi was captain of this ship for the first time, so if you weren't expecting a shake up, then that'd be your mistake.
The characters are far more accessible and streamlined than in previous games, and that's brilliant - It means us casuals are able to become more invested in learning those characters, and therefore become more attatched to the game and, consequently, the series. THAT is what will keep us coming back, not fancy story modes. (Which're nice, of course.)

Plus, there's a whole WORLD of difference in between removing game modes and taking a stance away from Mitsu. Face it, the series has shifted away from it's "quasi-realistic historical fantasy fighter" position, and one could argue that this was done in favour of supporting the casuals:

Countless knights and gladiators? Eeeeeh...
Magic orb werewolf summoning superhero lady-Naruto? OH BOY THAT SOUNDS FLASHY FUN!

And anyway, we lost Li Long WAY before we lost Zas, so SCV isn't exactly the only guilty party there.


As a side note, the guest characters aren't recurring. Expecting them to've returned is just silly.
 
senseipo, take it from someone who's embarrassed themselves plenty in these threads, forget the haters. I totally agree with you. relic stance was bitchin and they never should have removed it and i for one don't give a damn if everyone else thinks it was worthless or not. it made the game more fun for me and i am entitled to my (casual) opinion.

and what's with all this MIST stance is worthless in SCV bull? it might be easy to defeat at very high levels of play but i use it all the time in the GC and more than half the players in there will crap their pants if i come out of BB into MIST. I have been working on a fighting style that uses a ton of MIST and its starting to show very good results. yeah sure you can't block but you can jump and backstep. the main advantage with going into special stances is the mindfuck you give your opponent. OK there, i couldn't hold it in any longer, i feel much better now. strike me down and i will become more casual than you could ever imagine.
 
I do miss his attack throw though. So there's no reason for his sheath now. All the other characters don't have sheaths unless their smart like Patrokolos. Presumably every else carries their weapon around, must be shitty being Hilde.
 
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