ZWEI Viability Discussion

Party Wolf

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Well when a character doesnt win anything, it is more on the ZWEI players to prove he is viable rather than the other way around. Might as well make a thread about proving Santa doesn't exist.
 
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AndyrooSC

IVE WAITED FOR THIS!!!
@Party Wolf Ofc and yeah the 3 players which worth mentioning for tourney performing ZWEI players is toilet back in 2012 (sc5 new then yeah I know) Zane at multiple events and myself at EMS. Myself which is still active getting very close to top 8 twice at EMS, my losses are on me not the character I don't lose at the character select screen which alot of people believe.

@YINKAMIYOUKAI yeah AA it's a poke. i14 so it is one frame slower than the typical AAs from slower characters like hlide/aeon/cervy etc but still 100% usable. That +6 is good for ZWEI and -5 is surprisingly decent on block.
 

linkorz

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AA is also primarily used as a punish, which ZWEI can't do in a lot of situations, cuz i14 lul
 
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AndyrooSC

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@linkorz yeah as I say ZWEI isn't the best block punisher you can put him in that category with Xiba/asta/seig/nightmare who also have little to no i14s for punish, I'd recommend you try it for a poke when you can Link, it is one of them and backstep is a vaible option after it
 

fukou_da_man

[12] Conqueror
@linkorz yeah as I say ZWEI isn't the best block punisher you can put him in that category with Xiba/asta/seig/nightmare who also have little to no i14s for punish, I'd recommend you try it for a poke when you can Link, it is one of them and backstep is a vaible option after it
Those characters all have great tools for zoning and damage. ZWEI has his i99999999999999999 66A+B and ????
 

fukou_da_man

[12] Conqueror
Okay, b+k I will give you. Not a bad move. However, B hold you can step and JG/GI on hit (lol), 6a is okay but it is still a -14 high with only moderate push-back, 66b is slow, somewhat unsafe and linear with minimal payoff (20 some damage on hit?) it does TC though so I could see some degree of use out of it. WR B seems like it'd be better in that case tho imo, 1B I question in any scenario and b+k be is slow and costs meter. I am not sure I'd particularly call them "good" on paper at least.

So, I'm not a Z.W.E.I. player. However, none of these moves really make me think "oh man, I gotta watch out for that" compared to something like NM's aga or Xiba's 6B/6A or Asta's 4A etc.

My challenge to you is that I ask if maybe you could find or provide some specific examples of these moves being consistently useful?
 
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AndyrooSC

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Okay, b+k I will give you. Not a bad move. However, B hold you can step and JG/GI on hit (lol), 6a is okay but it is still a -14 high with only moderate push-back, 66b is slow, somewhat unsafe and linear with minimal payoff (20 some damage on hit?) it does TC though so I could see some degree of use out of it. WR B seems like it'd be better in that case tho imo, 1B I question in any scenario and b+k be is slow and costs meter. I am not sure I'd particularly call them "good" on paper at least.

So, I'm not a Z.W.E.I. player. However, none of these moves really make me think "oh man, I gotta watch out for that" compared to something like NM's aga or Xiba's 6B/6A or Asta's 4A etc.

My challenge to you is that I ask if maybe you could find or provide some specific examples of these moves being consistently useful?
Yeah B hold is good for when a opponent wants to come in, the first hit being i15 and getting good damage and frame advantage on CH. I know it's a string and the second hit can be GI/JG'd on NH and stepped on block, but it's not easy and the Ein tracks well especially at tip range, yes you do have to be abit more careful with it if the opponent is consistently punishing it, which isn't often anyway, then you have single B and BB at worst it's a reverse mix up with small to medium reward at best it's a keep out/keep honest/pretty fast mid. (and on block it's +2 useful at the wall for 2a/2K/B frame traps and mid screen keepout)

6A is just the anti step option useful to hit opponents on the way in who like to step to avoid b+K/B hold, step catch ZWEI is pretty bad at, outside of max charged 1B hold set ups, he has dash 2a, AA, risky 6a, risky 3aa, slow 66a, but ZWEI has to use this 6A least it's decent reward on CH into 66a+b/ 4b be/ CE

66B is ZWEIs ranged tool, for getting in and covering that space infront of him, being safe and doing good guard damage are other advantages it gives, it also tracks well thankfully, I do throw out a 66B to cover that space occasionally as it does have some good soild range, I placed it as his best move in my top 10.

If you can get a free 1B hold ein charge in a set up or far away do it, free meter and it's a projectile covering space, and if opponent is in that space they have to respect your options as you can basically let go as a block punish/whiff punish into 66BA.

B+K be yeah it costs meter it's good for closing out rounds or stalling timer another strong move offensive and defensively.

He isn't a strong as say NM in the spacing department but its one of his positives which does save him and make some of his worst Match ups still winnable at 3- 7 and characters with smaller range and who use more close up pressure to be 4 - 6 and some you can argue 5 - 5. Which to me means viable.
 
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AndyrooSC

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so what do you think about ZWEI - Cerv Kappa
3 - 7 it's one of his worst MUs. Mainly due to the stuff cervy can get away with like 66b/66a/ tip range aB and his movement, ZWEI has to 66B to stop backstep like it's his only option which can be interrupted or empty stepped, so ZWEI has to let him go or go for that.

What ZWEI can do is punish aB close up with 4b be or mid range with 4A into a Ein charge.

Cervy doesn't have much TC so 6A, 66a, 6b, and throws are less likely to be auto ducked.

Outside aB and CE he is on the slow side so post 2K options can be used to force respect/backstep/jump

He has 66b+K to escape the immediate grab/bt b+K after 4b be

Just use the step to avoid verticals like 66b/3b/4b be and if you read for 66A/ Grabs duck and wrB puinsh
 

linkorz

Super Moderator
I would personally argue 8-2, for all the reasons that you listed and that iirc he cannot punish aB. He can probably get 4B BE back against the wall, but other than that, cervy can toss it out with pretty much total abandon, giving him a safe i11 40 damage move. He can use that to shut out ZWEI's rather slow B&B (66B, 66A+B, etc) rather effectively. Personally, I think it's on of the worst MUs in the game, with Sieg - aPat and ZWEI - aPat up there as well.
 
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AndyrooSC

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I would personally argue 8-2, for all the reasons that you listed and that iirc he cannot punish aB. He can probably get 4B BE back against the wall, but other than that, cervy can toss it out with pretty much total abandon, giving him a safe i11 40 damage move. He can use that to shut out ZWEI's rather slow B&B (66B, 66A+B, etc) rather effectively. Personally, I think it's on of the worst MUs in the game, with Sieg - aPat and ZWEI - aPat up there as well.
He can punish aB though 4B BE close up and 4A mid range with a free Ein max charge.

A+B is a force block and at tip range only CE can block punish it

And if Cervy stays still after blocked aB ZWEI can 66A+B/214B step forward grab/2K

Its defo 3 - 7 imo if aB was actually safe then this would be a different story