Matchup Discussion: Leixia VS. Mitsurugi

So his pullback - stab thing can dodge WR 3B after 6KK <_< If I tried that (44B) with leixia I have a feeling I'd get my face beaten in. This games starting to piss me off. They need to hurry up with patch 2.
 
Well yes, if you whiffed something then it's too late, but he isn't pulling back on reaction to your attack, he's guessing.

aGI window isn't that short. It's doable on reaction.
 
Ya I suppose. Just irks me that he can do that after I hit 6KK and get away with it. Is it safe on block? Like, can I punish it with 6KK or AA or something? I actually have his frame data but I have no idea what move it is lmao.
 
FallenAngelII said:
Mitsurugi can also choose between the stab or a stance (and just draw back). Mitsurugi's 4B also has greater range than Leixia's 44B. If you initiate both at the same time, despite both thrusting forward towards each other, Mitsurugi's will beat Leixia's every single time. In order to beat it, you have to time it so your own stab comes out slightly after Mitsurugi's.
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You're missing the point. They are the same type of move, a backstep evade to punish short range retaliations. I wasn't talking about trading with it. And if he's pulling back into stance, who cares? He's not punishing you if he does that.

FallenAngelII said:
Mitsurugi has several fast mids and lows. Frame trap what?
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Do you know what a frame trap is? If you don't, it means that Leixia's first attack gives her enough frame advantage on hit/block to where Mitsu cannot interrupt her followup attack. His speed don't matter if he doesn't have the frames to stop your next move.

4B is a good move, but it's not the reason she struggles. You just have to account for it a certain times (Ex: If you think he will 4B after your 6KK hits, step forward and 3B. Stance or not, he loses. You could also do WS A+B, 44K, 33BB, 6B+K, another 6KK, etc...)

And all this about her combos, into CE... it's ok, but that's really for comeback situations only. Even if you just CH 66BB~33BB that's still sizeable damage and KND.
 
"his speed doesn't matter if he doesn't have the frames to stop your next move"

Speed = frames before the move hits does it not ?_?

If I'm understanding it correctly, to stop a -2 frame trap he just needs a 13 frame move or allowably a slightly slower move that has crouching. Or he could do the pullback thing and evade AA anyway @_@ But it depends on what you're following up with. AA is the fastest and he probably has the means to overcome that.
 
ZeroEffect317 said:
You're missing the point. They are the same type of move, a backstep evade to punish short range retaliations. I wasn't talking about trading with it. And if he's pulling back into stance, who cares? He's not punishing you if he does that.
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Because he can choose to just go into a stance instead of doing the actual stab, evading you without stabbing. Leixia can't. So the two are similar, but there are stark differences.

ZeroEffect317 said:
Do you know what a frame trap is? If you don't, it means that Leixia's first attack gives her enough frame advantage on hit/block to where Mitsu cannot interrupt her followup attack. His speed don't matter if he doesn't have the frames to stop your next move.
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Yes, but Mitsurugi's has fast and far-reaching moves that turn most of Leixia's frame traps simply into unsafe pressure. She has, what, 4 frame traps against him?

ZeroEffect317 said:
4B is a good move, but it's not the reason she struggles. You just have to account for it a certain times (Ex: If you think he will 4B after your 6KK hits, step forward and 3B.
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I never said his 4B is the main reason why Leixia struggles against Mitsurugi.
 
FallenAngelII said:
Yes, but Mitsurugi's has fast and far-reaching moves that turn most of Leixia's frame traps simply into unsafe pressure. She has, what, 4 frame traps against him?
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No, no... the point of a frame trap is to make the opponent act defensively. Yes he has fast moves. but an immediate 2A or 6KK or even CE, will beat any attack standing he does... even at +2. So now, he has to think about doing something to counter that. (does he jump? 4B? GI?) This is where your mindgames start. You are in control of the mixup. that's why I say speed doesn't matter.



FallenAngelII said:
I never said his 4B is the main reason why Leixia struggles against Mitsurugi.
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That part was speaking to everyone in general, not singling you out.
 
EmptySky00 said:
"his speed doesn't matter if he doesn't have the frames to stop your next move"

Speed = frames before the move hits does it not ?_?

If I'm understanding it correctly, to stop a -2 frame trap he just needs a 13 frame move or allowably a slightly slower move that has crouching. Or he could do the pullback thing and evade AA anyway @_@ But it depends on what you're following up with. AA is the fastest and he probably has the means to overcome that.
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If you're at disadvantage, frame traps don't work as well as if you're at +frames. Example again, 6KK is +8 on hit. There's nothing Mitsu can attack with that will beat your 2A followup in terms of speed, because your 2A is now coming out at 4 frames instead of 12. He has to evade or jump to beat it, both of which are slower options. Of course there's always something the opponent can do to escape the trap, but the risk/reward is in Leixia's favor since almost everything she hits you with is +frames or KND.
 
ZeroEffect317 said:
If you're at disadvantage, frame traps don't work as well as if you're at +frames. Example again, 6KK is +8 on hit. There's nothing Mitsu can attack with that will beat your 2A followup in terms of speed, because your 2A is now coming out at 4 frames instead of 12. He has to evade or jump to beat it, both of which are slower options. Of course there's always something the opponent can do to escape the trap, but the risk/reward is in Leixia's favor since almost everything she hits you with is +frames or KND.
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A mix-up on hit isn't really a frame trap. That's your opponent being an idiot if he attacks after getting hit by something that gives +frames (99% of all moves).
 
That's exactly what a frame trap does. Makes them have to play defense. The mixup comes in after they learn to respect the moves that frame trap. Once they guard, now they're opened up for stronger mixups. Someone already posted a guide in this SA about her frame traps and their uses.
 
FallenAngelII said:
Sorry, there's a word missing there: The only safe move that combos into CE is 4K.
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They are all safe.

FallenAngelII said:
Also, every single one of them is either a high or a mid. So her options to mix-up into CE are limited.
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Not sure what you mean. As long as you can make the opponent duck you're fine.

ZeroEffect317 said:
And all this about her combos, into CE... it's ok, but that's really for comeback situations only. Even if you just CH 66BB~33BB that's still sizeable damage and KND.
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I don't really use Leixia's BE moves unless I'm desperate, especially now that WR B BE CE does like 75 dmg, so I usually sit on 200% meter by round 2/3. Having the threat of a combo that ends in CE CE forces opponents to play more defensively imo.
 
What? I thought a frame trap was having them block a move that has slight disadvantage so you can outspeed their counterattack <_< Landing a hit is just.. well.. landing a hit. If they're mashing attacks then I don't think that counts as a frame trap. And to be honest, if you're using CE after landing a regular attack that leaves you with like +8, you're asking to have your face beaten in after it's blocked.
 
It looks like this frame trap argument isn't really going anywhere, but I'd suggest looking into the frame trap guide that was posted.
 
ZeroEffect317 said:
It looks like this frame trap argument isn't really going anywhere, but I'd suggest looking into the frame trap guide that was posted.
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1) It's not a frame trap if the opponent has a mid that's fast enough and has enough range to literally beat every single one of your options.
2) It's not a frame trap if it only works on hit. That's just stupidity on the part of the opponent.
 
stupidity... right.... Well if you say so.

At any rate, let's just move on back to actual matchup analysis and strategy. Thread's been derailed long enough.
 
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