- Moderator
- #121
Heaton
A Soul in the Purgatory
R.I.P. balls. I love me some of you.
Soul Calibur V Raphael - Nerfs? Buffs? Change Of Style?
- Thread starter ShenRii
- Start date
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- #122
WuHT
Premium Moderator
Out of all of Raphael's potential new mechanics, I'd like to know what his anti-step options are. Please do not disappoint!
Black_Dog
[09] Warrior
Looks like someone on Team Soul was listening to the Night Botte idea. Nothing vampiric that I can see in any of the screenshots. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing unless they're useful without being absurd.
Look at the trajectory of the blow. Could it be a TC horizontal ? I hope it's a full circular.
Mandritti
[09] Warrior
Raph's 4B always looked like that. In fact, In SC IV I have found it can catch Nightmare stepping left in some conditions (which I am trying to reproduce). EDIT: oh wait, this is an SC V thread now. So that's off topic. -Fixed-
Hope you stay with us, Heaton.
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- #125
Heaton
A Soul in the Purgatory
Only if he keeps the animation for VE A+G_B+G against male opponents.
In all seriousness, I'll probably keep him as a secondary. He looks a lot more pressure heavy - almost like a linear Maxi with nice long range options.
However, my absolutely terrible performance at DEV with him has pretty much convinced me to stick to Siegfried for tournaments and similar stuff.
Angrel-San
[10] Knight
All I know is he can't be any worse than his BD version.
He was absolute trash there.
He can only go up. Is a shame that his SC2 version is still his highest ranked performance to this date and he was only Mid Tier there.
Now that Amy has her balls style, is time for Raphael to get her 2B+K and 3BA.
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- #127
WuHT
Premium Moderator
What are your thoughts on:
1)the apparant lack of 22(B)~VE B:B type combo from raph in SC5?
Safeish, long ranged poke out of step that could lead to a 60 damage combo if you guessed right and opted to go into stance. Depending on how the new SC5 33K:B could be, i'm interested to see where this leads raph as 33K:B has decent (but not as good as 22B) range, and seemed to do quite a bit of damage and offer a shiny GB plus BE options.
2)I'm intrigued by the few videos shown so far, as prep stance and neutral both share his 6BBB and 6AB attacks it appears (unless blocking from prep leaves him in prep, which is unlikely) which may initially seem like lazy animating from namco, but sc4's 6BBB animation was really ugly and i'm actually glad its gone.
3) So far, the same old moves lead into prep
3(B) <-- key one as usual
prepB(B)
66(B)
44A(B)
6A(B) <--new
prep6A(B) <-- new
214 <-- SC3 notation
4) from his stance, he has his new retreating low AND the 214 retreat AND SEB. Looks like baiting a high is raph's game.
Similarly, he has his trusty 4B, and prepA+B and SEB K from neutral, so again it looks like raph's best TC will not be WR moves but the above listed ones.
5) prep 214's aGI worked against a weird lunging attack that's probably mid (or maybe special mid), so it's a little hard to pin down what it exactly should work against. I hope he has an answer for verticals (ie simple BBs) in prep as opposed to trying to CH it with prepBBB.
It should be noted that this input can be placed in the beginning, middle and end of the prep advance. which'll mess with the opponent's timing
1)the apparant lack of 22(B)~VE B:B type combo from raph in SC5?
Safeish, long ranged poke out of step that could lead to a 60 damage combo if you guessed right and opted to go into stance. Depending on how the new SC5 33K:B could be, i'm interested to see where this leads raph as 33K:B has decent (but not as good as 22B) range, and seemed to do quite a bit of damage and offer a shiny GB plus BE options.
2)I'm intrigued by the few videos shown so far, as prep stance and neutral both share his 6BBB and 6AB attacks it appears (unless blocking from prep leaves him in prep, which is unlikely) which may initially seem like lazy animating from namco, but sc4's 6BBB animation was really ugly and i'm actually glad its gone.
3) So far, the same old moves lead into prep
3(B) <-- key one as usual
prepB(B)
66(B)
44A(B)
6A(B) <--new
prep6A(B) <-- new
214 <-- SC3 notation
4) from his stance, he has his new retreating low AND the 214 retreat AND SEB. Looks like baiting a high is raph's game.
Similarly, he has his trusty 4B, and prepA+B and SEB K from neutral, so again it looks like raph's best TC will not be WR moves but the above listed ones.
5) prep 214's aGI worked against a weird lunging attack that's probably mid (or maybe special mid), so it's a little hard to pin down what it exactly should work against. I hope he has an answer for verticals (ie simple BBs) in prep as opposed to trying to CH it with prepBBB.
It should be noted that this input can be placed in the beginning, middle and end of the prep advance. which'll mess with the opponent's timing
Black_Dog
[09] Warrior
1) I guess 22B is meant to bait a counter at mid range. On a vid, I saw a guy crumple after taking 22B. I suppose it was on counter. 33KB BE does quite a lot of damage. Depending on 33KB's safeness, 22B could become less interesting as soon as you get 50% gauge.
2) The way I see it, it gives Raph access to most of his basic moves in both neutral and prep. That should give him lots of options and help him to confuse his opponent. After all, the problem of Raph's prep in SCIV was it's extreme lack of variety.
On a side note, it fits the spirit of fencing, as preparation is only a concept (quite litterally, it refers to any move that prepares attack) and not a real stance, so prep shouldn't limit your options too much.
3)I expect a lot from 6AB and 214 leading to prep.
The former because it has a good reach, and prep at close range is less efficient, the latter because once again it favors variety.
4) Agreed, nothing much to add.
5)Prep B seems to be the best answer, right now. Then we add a few weird moves in order to confuse the opponent and make them hesitate.
On that regard, I think the prep low, with it's decent damage, should take the opponent out of their comfort zone.
2) The way I see it, it gives Raph access to most of his basic moves in both neutral and prep. That should give him lots of options and help him to confuse his opponent. After all, the problem of Raph's prep in SCIV was it's extreme lack of variety.
On a side note, it fits the spirit of fencing, as preparation is only a concept (quite litterally, it refers to any move that prepares attack) and not a real stance, so prep shouldn't limit your options too much.
3)I expect a lot from 6AB and 214 leading to prep.
The former because it has a good reach, and prep at close range is less efficient, the latter because once again it favors variety.
4) Agreed, nothing much to add.
5)Prep B seems to be the best answer, right now. Then we add a few weird moves in order to confuse the opponent and make them hesitate.
On that regard, I think the prep low, with it's decent damage, should take the opponent out of their comfort zone.
Mandritti
[09] Warrior
With "Prep A" ('Ebony Stock') out of 8wr added.... if 22B doesn't combo, its place in the game is quite a stretch. A bit of range for some frames in startup? With these movement options? Difference seems to be, Prep A pushes out and 22B keeps close, but both are merely 'large positive, no combo' stuns.
There are redundancies I find odd. One of those, he has Prep BB and also "6AB" out of Prep, both of these NH combo and re-prep, and are High. Huh? Another: I don't like these GBs for Raph. If 66B has TC that's going to be like Lizardman 66A, I think: use it all the time.
I am worried about this 214. It's sooo.....-so spammable. I will have to try and break that.
And some things I just miss. I'm going to miss 44B. I liked how it committed you to the riposte attack, even if it sucked. I'm going to miss the stab of SC IV 6BB. The fact it was a stab in the eye was integral to my enjoyment of it. *sigh*
Maybe 22B (BE) will be a beastly NH combo?
There are redundancies I find odd. One of those, he has Prep BB and also "6AB" out of Prep, both of these NH combo and re-prep, and are High. Huh? Another: I don't like these GBs for Raph. If 66B has TC that's going to be like Lizardman 66A, I think: use it all the time.
I am worried about this 214. It's sooo.....-so spammable. I will have to try and break that.
And some things I just miss. I'm going to miss 44B. I liked how it committed you to the riposte attack, even if it sucked. I'm going to miss the stab of SC IV 6BB. The fact it was a stab in the eye was integral to my enjoyment of it. *sigh*
Maybe 22B (BE) will be a beastly NH combo?
WARUI_NE
Prettier than you
6BB in SC4s animation at least made it easier to CH confirm
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- #131
WuHT
Premium Moderator
its probably a 2 frame speed difference between 6AB and BB from prep, which will affect non 3(B) combos. And thats me trying hard to find something to disagree with you, because there IS a redunancy so far, as prep K (old VE K) is his mid anti step so what exactly is prep 6AB ?
Signia
[13] Hero
Maybe 6A has short blockstun and recovers quickly, like it is in SCIV. This would make 6A out of prep a pretty safe exit from this often problematic stance, with a threateningish string ender in 6AB.
Outside of prep, you might be able to use 6A like a Tekken/VF jab now that it has a followup. It would behave like a more effective single B or single A but with less range.
This of course assumes that 6A has good recovery.
Outside of prep, you might be able to use 6A like a Tekken/VF jab now that it has a followup. It would behave like a more effective single B or single A but with less range.
This of course assumes that 6A has good recovery.
darthneo
[08] Mercenary
everybody know if raphael have again his auto-evade A+K and B+K because they miss in sc4
optymuss
[12] Conqueror
for those who have no idea what moves we are refering to in SC2 and SC3 and if you dont own SC2 and SC3 here is the visual on his moves WITHOUT the 1-9 directional input
SC2 Movelist
SC3 Movelist
This will help with more "ideas." Even though the majority know what Raphael should have already.
SC2 Movelist
Hudathan
[09] Warrior
1K, 3B, 4B, 4A, 4A+B, 8A+B, WS B, WC B, 66B, 66A+B, 22B, 22K, 33B, 33K:B, Prep BBB, and VE throw are all in the game in one form or another.
6B series now resembles his SCII version. Some players might prefer his SCIV version which didn't resemble the Prep B series, but long time Raph players like myself might like seeing the old chain back.
Prep A can now be done instantly without Prep (!) and seems to be fairly safe on block. On counter hit causes a sitting knockdown half the screen away. Guaranteed options unknown since the opponent seems to be able to block right away but long range mix-ups could be viable.
Prep A+B can now be done instantly without Prep. I don't really care for this change since he has plenty other TC options from standing and the risk versus reward just isn't there for a move that isn't very fast and can be stepped so easily.
New move: Prep A (?) Raph's 214 A from SCII can now be done during Prep, aGI with retreat built in and can transition instantly back into Prep. Has its uses.
New move: BBB (?) He is getting a 3rd hit to his BB string that resembles the last hit of 6BBB. Looks guaranteed on CH and a good change if visually confirmable.
New move: 6AB, transitions into Prep but also looks like it can be done during Prep. 3(B)~6A(B)~etc. Thanks to warui.
New move: SEB K, close range TC high kick now done from standing, not particularly fast but gives guaranteed damage. Useful as a close range substitute for 4B if the player does not want to make the choice of committing to Prep for possible follow-up damage. This is the type of good, situational move that will define proper Raph play.
New move: long range high horizontal, his SCII 4A with a possible new notation. This is a great change since not having a reliable standing horizontal has been one of the worst things about the character since SCII.
New move: Prep A+B (?) Back-dashing low that knocks down on hit, like a backward 2A+B. Slow enough to react to and doesn't evade enough. Since he already has his old 214 sway during Prep, this new move need to go under some changes if Namco wants there to be instant mix-ups from Prep.
SEB A is now SEA A and causes back-turn on hit. The speed is adequate and the range is massive, people WILL be forced to stand still. This is a great change.
SEB B is now SEA B and looks the same on block/hit.
New move: SEA K, TC low that knocks down on hit, looks similar to Mitsu's Relic K. Nothing seemed guaranteed afterwards on the Namco stream but it's fast and evasive enough to be useful. If I can't have guaranteed damage then setups are the next best thing.
As far as the entire game is concerned, it seems that the developers are really taking the effort to address many issues which has plagued the series for years. Namely the fact that many members of the cast simply lack the reliable tools to be well rounded for competitive play. The small tweaks I've seen so far in these early builds of the game really goes to show the potential this game has as far as balance is concerned. I'm very optimistic and hope to see much more footage in the coming months.
6B series now resembles his SCII version. Some players might prefer his SCIV version which didn't resemble the Prep B series, but long time Raph players like myself might like seeing the old chain back.
Prep A can now be done instantly without Prep (!) and seems to be fairly safe on block. On counter hit causes a sitting knockdown half the screen away. Guaranteed options unknown since the opponent seems to be able to block right away but long range mix-ups could be viable.
Prep A+B can now be done instantly without Prep. I don't really care for this change since he has plenty other TC options from standing and the risk versus reward just isn't there for a move that isn't very fast and can be stepped so easily.
New move: Prep A (?) Raph's 214 A from SCII can now be done during Prep, aGI with retreat built in and can transition instantly back into Prep. Has its uses.
New move: BBB (?) He is getting a 3rd hit to his BB string that resembles the last hit of 6BBB. Looks guaranteed on CH and a good change if visually confirmable.
New move: 6AB, transitions into Prep but also looks like it can be done during Prep. 3(B)~6A(B)~etc. Thanks to warui.
New move: SEB K, close range TC high kick now done from standing, not particularly fast but gives guaranteed damage. Useful as a close range substitute for 4B if the player does not want to make the choice of committing to Prep for possible follow-up damage. This is the type of good, situational move that will define proper Raph play.
New move: long range high horizontal, his SCII 4A with a possible new notation. This is a great change since not having a reliable standing horizontal has been one of the worst things about the character since SCII.
New move: Prep A+B (?) Back-dashing low that knocks down on hit, like a backward 2A+B. Slow enough to react to and doesn't evade enough. Since he already has his old 214 sway during Prep, this new move need to go under some changes if Namco wants there to be instant mix-ups from Prep.
SEB A is now SEA A and causes back-turn on hit. The speed is adequate and the range is massive, people WILL be forced to stand still. This is a great change.
SEB B is now SEA B and looks the same on block/hit.
New move: SEA K, TC low that knocks down on hit, looks similar to Mitsu's Relic K. Nothing seemed guaranteed afterwards on the Namco stream but it's fast and evasive enough to be useful. If I can't have guaranteed damage then setups are the next best thing.
As far as the entire game is concerned, it seems that the developers are really taking the effort to address many issues which has plagued the series for years. Namely the fact that many members of the cast simply lack the reliable tools to be well rounded for competitive play. The small tweaks I've seen so far in these early builds of the game really goes to show the potential this game has as far as balance is concerned. I'm very optimistic and hope to see much more footage in the coming months.
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- #136
WuHT
Premium Moderator
This thread is being a sort of free discussion regarding general observations on limited gameplay videos.
Does anyone want to champion an official Raphael SC5 wishlist to bring attention to the twitter ?
Does anyone want to champion an official Raphael SC5 wishlist to bring attention to the twitter ?
Runemaster
[09] Warrior
- more horizontals,
perhaps a retreating long range horisontal attack, so raph can perform a quick getaway while attacking, to maintain his spacing.
- old raph SC2's preps
- old raph SC2's A+K & B+K evades
- good anti step options
- more combos
hmm... and probably another auto GI move that counters verticals with auto 236B :D
perhaps a retreating long range horisontal attack, so raph can perform a quick getaway while attacking, to maintain his spacing.
- old raph SC2's preps
- old raph SC2's A+K & B+K evades
- good anti step options
- more combos
hmm... and probably another auto GI move that counters verticals with auto 236B :D
Hudathan
[09] Warrior
His new SEB K needs to stun on normal hit, not counter-hit.
Runemaster
[09] Warrior
Hey guys, I wanna ask something...
Last time I played Raph seriously was in SC2. He was very fun to play back then. Then SC3 came and they change him a bit. I was starting to lose interest in him but I still played him, while not as serious. SC2 also was a golden time in SC community in my country back then, and when SC3 arrived somehow the community also slowly disappear and got worse in SC4 where almost no one played SC again. And from my opinion, Raph also got even worse in SC4 and become very different from Sc2 Raph that I love.
Sc5 almost here and I admit, I kinda miss playing SC, so I put a little faith in Namco because I want to play Raph again. My question is, how similar he is in SC5 to his SC4 counterpart? (I kinda hate SC4 Raph I don't even play him in SC4)
I miss having Prep A, B, C, D and can twirl to enter another stance and keep the momentum going,
I miss having A+K & B+K evades,
I miss having old BB that hits grounded,
.. and the list go on.
And in SC4 Raph got even more linear, less preps, can not twirl, useless teleport, etc etc :(
Can I have a little hope in SC5 Raph?
Or he will be almost like SC4 Raph but with upgrades?
Sorry for the rant.
Last time I played Raph seriously was in SC2. He was very fun to play back then. Then SC3 came and they change him a bit. I was starting to lose interest in him but I still played him, while not as serious. SC2 also was a golden time in SC community in my country back then, and when SC3 arrived somehow the community also slowly disappear and got worse in SC4 where almost no one played SC again. And from my opinion, Raph also got even worse in SC4 and become very different from Sc2 Raph that I love.
Sc5 almost here and I admit, I kinda miss playing SC, so I put a little faith in Namco because I want to play Raph again. My question is, how similar he is in SC5 to his SC4 counterpart? (I kinda hate SC4 Raph I don't even play him in SC4)
I miss having Prep A, B, C, D and can twirl to enter another stance and keep the momentum going,
I miss having A+K & B+K evades,
I miss having old BB that hits grounded,
.. and the list go on.
And in SC4 Raph got even more linear, less preps, can not twirl, useless teleport, etc etc :(
Can I have a little hope in SC5 Raph?
Or he will be almost like SC4 Raph but with upgrades?
Sorry for the rant.