Valid reasons to warrant a Ban.

OOFMATIC said:
I don't think it's fair to group all of Canada like that. It's only 1 person who is banning them in a small time tourney that he runs. As far as I know no other Canadian is in favor of banning all 3 Star Wars characters.

I was hoping most people would stick to the topic, which is what valid reasons for banning should be so we can set guidelines for future reference, but it seems like it's not possible to keep this thread from becoming a ban Algol/Star Wars debate. So I would like to add my thoughts about Yoda, and people's reasons for banning him:

"You can not throw him"
True, you can not, but he has so many negative aspects about him (I'll get to that), that it makes this look like a MINOR advantage for him.

"High's don't hit him/half the move list does not work on him"
This is FALSE. Highs and most moves DO work on him, they just don't work when he's on the ground. Half the time he is jumping, so a well timed high, or move that wouldn't normally hit him, will work at that point. A Lizardman player can play the game by being in his crawl stance half the time. High's and some mids don't work on him then. Should that be banned too?

"Normal Combo's don't work on him"
Since when did this game become Killer Instinct or Tekken? This game isn't only about pulling combos, it's about mind games, spacing, interrupting, mixups, and more. So what if you can't properly combo Yoda? That shouldn't hinder your ability to play the game. And it's not like Yoda has the upper hand with his combos. His best damage viable combo is 59 damage, and it can only be on counterhit (CH A+B,B, 6B+K, B).

Now I would like to point out his drawbacks:

He has NO STEP
Yoda can not step, period. He can 8 way run, very very slowly, and can jump to the side, which is no where near as fast or useful as stepping. This makes certain linear moves like Asta's 44B, and 22_88B very good against him, since he is usually forced to block such moves, and this brings me to the next point:

His Soul Gauge depletes quickly
It's very easy to damage Yoda's Soul Gauge, just GI him alot (easy to GI since he's all about string attacks and mostly mids), and use strong verticals, since he will be forced block them most of the time, since he has no step.

His drawbacks by far out way the positives. He is not a character that is overpowered, or unbeatable, in fact certain characters can be unbeatable for him, because of how bad he is. He doesn't take away from the gameplay aside from throws and combos, and even then he has more severe elements taken away from his own game play, which more than even it out.

You can't throw him? Well he has no step.
You can't hit him with certain moves at certain times? Well he can get Critical Finished much faster than you can.
You can't combo him for much damage? Well he can't really combo you for much either.

The mind game and adaptation aspects of the game are still very much there when fighting Yoda. Those are the core elements of the game and they are not taken away. He only takes away some minor aspects of the game. He can still be very much dealt with and is in fact very difficult to win with against a knowledgeable opponent. This is me speaking from experience since I use him as a secondary character.
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I think this is the perfect example of a rational player arguing a case and what a thread like this should be about instead of stupid comments all across the board from some people just being a dick on purpose.

I completely agree with u Oof because your argument considers both sides of the ban in regards to Yoda.

In the end though in my opinion banning him can go either way for pretty much the same reasons you said above.

The only person who should get a ban indefinitely in this game is Algol. Once again Yoda can go either way.
Vader and Apprentice their is absolutely no grounds for their ban.
 
franman said:
The image I speak of is that in the competitive scene, Soul Calibur is traditionally recognized as a melee weapon game with ancient warriors incorporated.
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You're describing Soul Edge. Every Soul Calibur game changes the way Soul Calibur is recognized.

Soul Edge: Weapon-based fighting in ancient history with zero regard for realistic depiction of injury.
Soul Calibur: Half a dozen characters are monsters, and a semi-nude woman with an impossible weapon is introduced, contextually believable clothing no-longer a concern.
Soul Calibur 2: Larger monster/human ratio, Raphael gives non-sidestepping scrubs new definition of "cheap." The concept of guest characters is introduced.
Soul Calibur 3: Costume realism is thrown completely out the window in favor of a more fanciful RPG-like style. Potentially nonsensical custom characters are possible. Stages become more grandiose, less realistic.
Soul Calibur 4: Costumes get even crazier. Stages get even crazier. Primary settings are no-longer in the real world.

Every single game is a stylistic redefinition.
 
@ Dullyana - Lizardman? Don't play him much..does he have a "better" side? explain.

Overall I don't like the idea of Star Wars becoming the focus either but think about SC2 days with Link. Its all I ever heard about from tons of people. Link this, Link that, Links so great!

Like I said in in the toronto thread...I think SC tourneys should only have SC characters. No bonus characters what so ever. Algol is all good. SW and Bonus out. Namco has to make money somehow.
 
KingAce said:
Going better...
Mostly because it's filled with people that agree with you...and because it so one sided, for that very reason...it obviously accomplishing nothing.

You all agree how nice...so what?
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Wouldn't a consensus be the kind of "accomplishment" we should be shooting for?
 
Oofmatic regarding about Yoda. What about those ppl that do not have Yoda? Recall back in SC3 when Jaxel was hosting a Crooked Jester Tourney, he was deciding whether they use the American or Japanese version of SC3 and it turns out to be American because there are ppl who don't even have the Japanese version of SC3 and they are not prepared enough to play the Japanese version of SC3. So wouldn't that apply to those who don't have Yoda because they are not prepared to face such a character.
 
My counterargument to OOF's argument about Yoda would be twofold

a) He totally negates two characters- Hilde and Rock. He also gets raped for free by some characters. This makes the main strategy used in a Yoda match the character select screen. That's not good.

b) If SC is about strategy, why allow a character who encourages limited, one-dimensional tactics to use against him?
People change their entire games to fight Yoda, to do things that aren't even viable against the rest of the cast.
To me, that screams makes the game less enjoyable, which for a bonus character is grounds for ban. While you could argue some in the main cast do this (Sophitia)- no one encourages extreme and ridiculous tactics as much as Yoda.

c) I think pay-to-play chars for tournies is not a good idea due to potential hardware glitches.

Voldo definitely has a better side due to his bug. I don't think banning his glitch move is viable- I've never been hit by it so I can't tell for sure.
 
1) You already need the internet to get patches that ARE forced on you.
2) He's roughly the same price as one admission fee. Dirt cheap.
 
Thane said:
@ Dullyana - Lizardman? Don't play him much..does he have a "better" side? explain.

Overall I don't like the idea of Star Wars becoming the focus either but think about SC2 days with Link. Its all I ever heard about from tons of people. Link this, Link that, Links so great!

Like I said in in the toronto thread...I think SC tourneys should only have SC characters. No bonus characters what so ever. Algol is all good. SW and Bonus out. Namco has to make money somehow.
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It's something to do with getting his 44K AT on neutral hit or something on the 2P side.

Also, Link sucks. The only people who thought he was good were noobs and/or morons.
 
Saitoh said:
You still cant force people to PAY for a BONUS character.
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There are maps and expansion packs that need to be bought for other games that competitive players need to pay in order to be versed in.

And this is kind of a slippery slope, isn't it? What if someone's playing a non-patched SC4 because he doesn't have Internet access? Only play on 1.0?
 
E.C. said:
There are maps and expansion packs that need to be bought for other games that competitive players need to pay in order to be versed in.

And this is kind of a slippery slope, isn't it? What if someone's playing a non-patched SC4 because he doesn't have Internet access? Only play on 1.0?
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You can bring the patch via memory card, at least i know you can do it for Xbox version.
Also you can bring you console to a friend place where there is internet.


And come on, are you really going to compare what Brood war or The Frozen Throne were to Starcraft and Warcraft 3 with Yoda and Vader ? please :)
 
arstal said:
My counterargument to OOF's argument about Yoda would be twofold

a) He totally negates two characters- Hilde and Rock. He also gets raped for free by some characters. This makes the main strategy used in a Yoda match the character select screen. That's not good.

b) If SC is about strategy, why allow a character who encourages limited, one-dimensional tactics to use against him?
People change their entire games to fight Yoda, to do things that aren't even viable against the rest of the cast.
To me, that screams makes the game less enjoyable, which for a bonus character is grounds for ban. While you could argue some in the main cast do this (Sophitia)- no one encourages extreme and ridiculous tactics as much as Yoda.
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This is a typical example of scrub mentality.

a)Bad matchups do not warrant bans. Fighting games have had horrible matchups ever since Street Fighter 2.

b)It doesn't matter how complicated a strategy is for it to be good, or be better than another simple strategy. It's not the player's job to make the game look entertaining, it's the player's job to dissect the game and best increase his chances of winning.

I'm not picking on you in particular, its just you happened to have a representative post that pretty much resonates with everyone else in support of a ban and you made a convenient list.

The fact of the matter is, yoda does not destroy the game. People who pick yoda will not win a lot after all the parlor tricks are learned. The number of people playing yoda and actually succeeding with him will not be numerous enough to make the game degenerate into this stupid low mid fest that everyone in support of a ban is crying about. Sure he has different mechanics. So what? He's part of the game, and you can beat him with in game tools. That's all that matters.

My main problem is, where do you draw the line with banning a character just because he's "different"? Why not ban Sophie 236B? Nobody else has a move like it. Or stuff like Taki's A because its faster than everyone else's. Or Talim's 33A in SC2, since nobody had a move that tech jumped, crouched, side stepped and was fast and safe. I argue that these things are just as bannable as Yoda is. The reason why is the ability to hit a high or throw is not something that you deserve, its just something that's there to exploit. Throws in fighting games are strong, but people use them because it allows them to win, not because it is something that is mandatory to use if you are good. Especially in a case where you don't need throws to win at all...
 
Saitoh said:
come on, are you really going to compare what Brood war or The Frozen Throne were to Starcraft and Warcraft 3 with Yoda and Vader ? please :)
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For percentage of new characters, I think Brood War is a pretty good example. In fact, we're talking about the addition of two ugly new characters and a balance patch. Can you say "Dark Resurrection?" I knew you could.
 
Saitoh said:
And come on, are you really going to compare what Brood war or The Frozen Throne were to Starcraft and Warcraft 3 with Yoda and Vader ? please :)
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Not a direct comparison, but still, I doubt many serious players are complaining about tourneys rules cuz they don't want to pay for something.

Hell, I absolutely loathe nickel-n-dime DLC, but if there were a tourney coming up with Vader allowed and a known Vader player was attending, I'd buy* him.


*By "buy", I mean find some free Microsoft Points offer somewhere.
 
If he were legal, I'd pick him up after I get a better grasp on Tira and Ivy. I like Vader's style.
 
The issue of cost is ridiculous. It costs $5 to buy the extra characters. That's less than the entry fee at most tournaments.

I still have yet to see a convincing argument why any character (Yoda, Algol... hell, I'll even include guest and custom characters) should be banned from any tournament.

In the context of a competitive fighting game, there is not a single character that breaks the balance of the game.
 
E.C. said:
Not a direct comparison, but still, I doubt many serious players are complaining about tourneys rules cuz they don't want to pay for something.

Hell, I absolutely loathe nickel-n-dime DLC, but if there were a tourney coming up with Vader allowed and a known Vader player was attending, I'd buy* him.


*By "buy", I mean find some free Microsoft Points offer somewhere.
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I do think in the end, it's all about the decision tournament organizers make.
If you're not agree with them, dont attend and make your own. Or adapt.


As i said :

Anyway there should be no drama about it, if you don't agree with the tournament rules, don't attend them. If you travel for an international tournament, where banned characters in your local tournament are allowed, train and prepare yourself for it before attending.

End of story :)
 
I always find the threats of a slippery slope funny, because we already slipped. SC2 forced us to walk the slippery slope of character bans, and we fell down it. This is the bottom of the hill.
 
DiBiddilyBop said:
The issue of cost is ridiculous. It costs $5 to buy the extra characters. That's less than the entry fee at most tournaments.

I still have yet to see a convincing argument why any character (Yoda, Algol... hell, I'll even include guest and custom characters) should be banned from any tournament.

In the context of a competitive fighting game, there is not a single character that breaks the balance of the game.
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Why is it ridiculous? I'll pay $100 to go to a tournmanet, because I get $100+ of utility from it.

I won't pay $5 for Vader, cause I view having him in the game as negative utility. Therefore Vader is wasting money for me. I'm sure others feel that way as well.

Utility= economic term that roughly means "Value"
 
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