SCPartisan
Holy Moly
Thanks for the write up!
I'll look at it more when I have the game in front of me.
I'll look at it more when I have the game in front of me.
SCPartisan/HoP Session Videos
- Thread starter SCPartisan
- Start date
Ring
Lay still now
I actually think it's not that good. One whiff means that you lose close to half of your life bar as her backdash -> CL6A+B/SW 6A+B will hit him backturned for 100 dmg everytime, it will also avoid Voldo's BT throws due to TC and BT A+B. BS is only good against her if you are close or have her trapped in a corner, otherwise it's a lot of risk.
This basically, though I do think if Voldo gets a rushdown oppertunity vs Ivy in BS it is worth the risk =/
Ring
Lay still now
Well it's almost 50/50 as both characters can do a lot of damage here. Voldo's combos generally deal massive damage but because of the fact that CL 6A+B and WP 6A+B become 100dmg AT on backturned opponents it gives Ivy some options. He still has an advantage in this matchup, though...
I'm curious why does 6A+B do more damage against him BT? How much does it do normally? I don't ever play as Ivy so I don't know her notations very well, what I know is just gathered from playing against her.
I would keep in mind Voldo has some very long range moves in BS, in particular BS 44A is fast, safe, (but high) has massive range and leads to a huge combo (80 + damage) and amazing oki on hit. BS 66B has very long range as well and gives Voldo excellent options on block. Just because BS 3B and BS 22B are some of his most common moves in BS (and rather short ranged) doesn't mean they're his only or best. Also, Voldo's very fast step in BS means he can forward step and actually keep up with Ivy.
Anyhow, I'm sure Ring knows what he's talking about, so consider m advice modified as: try to be in BS up close. This is generally difficult because as soon as you block you lose BS, so use 4A up close to transition directly into BS pressure, or space 236A+B correctly/near a wall to get into BS at close range, or use 44(B) as a combo ender to get BS oki, or use 1(K) and then follow it up with something like BS A+B.
One thing people always forget vs Voldo: BLOCKING pull him out of BS, getting hit DOES NOT. One of the best times to use BS A+B, and most people almost never see this coming, is right after you have been hit in BS. After all, you are at minor disadvantage so it's a perfect time to use it. Works likes a charm and it really freaks people out.
Ring, I am still surprised to hear you say that Voldo has the advantage in this matchup. I never feel advantaged vs any Ivy, her tools are so strong...
I would keep in mind Voldo has some very long range moves in BS, in particular BS 44A is fast, safe, (but high) has massive range and leads to a huge combo (80 + damage) and amazing oki on hit. BS 66B has very long range as well and gives Voldo excellent options on block. Just because BS 3B and BS 22B are some of his most common moves in BS (and rather short ranged) doesn't mean they're his only or best. Also, Voldo's very fast step in BS means he can forward step and actually keep up with Ivy.
Anyhow, I'm sure Ring knows what he's talking about, so consider m advice modified as: try to be in BS up close. This is generally difficult because as soon as you block you lose BS, so use 4A up close to transition directly into BS pressure, or space 236A+B correctly/near a wall to get into BS at close range, or use 44(B) as a combo ender to get BS oki, or use 1(K) and then follow it up with something like BS A+B.
One thing people always forget vs Voldo: BLOCKING pull him out of BS, getting hit DOES NOT. One of the best times to use BS A+B, and most people almost never see this coming, is right after you have been hit in BS. After all, you are at minor disadvantage so it's a perfect time to use it. Works likes a charm and it really freaks people out.
Ring, I am still surprised to hear you say that Voldo has the advantage in this matchup. I never feel advantaged vs any Ivy, her tools are so strong...
KrayzieCD
[11] Champion
You sound so new school with this post. Or wait, did you even play SC2 or SC3? X was the ORIGINAL broken bitch before SC4. Ivy/Amy became X, not the other way around.
Ring
Lay still now
haha check the first page of Ivy match up discussion: http://8wayrun.com/threads/ivy-match-ups-and-anti-character-strategies.1277/
6A+B is one of her staple moves that have been around forever. On hit it becomes an AT but that depends how it hits: front (40dmg), side (75dmg) and back (95-100dmg). Voldo is unfortunate because in BS he is always hit for 100 dmg! Also like I mentioned, 6A+B has TC frames for almost entire move animation so it avoids throws, BS A+B and other high moves. Also this move has a lot of range.
I know this move doesn't beat all his options but generally put him at massive risk. In Coiled it's easy to backdash and dodge a lot of his moves. Ivy has some other options against BS stance as well, like CL22_88A or WP A+B that turn him "around" on block (and hit) so she can force him to leave BS (the latter one is heavily punishable, though). Also she has 4K, which is a TC mid kick. It's good against BS A+B. I don't know about SW 66K, it's a "body hit", does Voldo's BS A+B auto GI such moves?
SCPartisan
Holy Moly
I dunno about everyone else, but I have been thinking ivy is the best legal character for about a year now. That's why my anti ivy is so developed!
Body hits are not GI'ed by BSA+B. It seems like 6A+B is punishable though, no? It's worse than -16 on guard, if it doesn't have massive spacing then it will be 66:B for 60 damage + mixup which adds up to a lot. Still you are probably right.
Honestly I don't know what to make of the 4:6 matchup. When I see Malek's name signed to something it makes me want to shut up and accept it because he is 10 000 times better than I will ever be at this game. But he lists 236(A+B) as a tool vs Ivy (unless I misunderstand), that move is almost worthless except for punishing ridiculous things like christmas tree.
Ivy players in general seem to have some kind of complex, the number of bad matchups random Ivy players are giving her is ridiculous.
I need more anti-Ivy knowledge to comment in any real depth. The main thing I can say is that a lot of people put Voldo very high on tier lists without getting to know his moves at all. Many times I've seen people comment that Kilik is the weakest of the top tiers (and they don't include Ivy in the first place). leaving Voldo as the #1 or #2 best character in the game, which I don't agree with.
I think theory can only stay theory for so long, there has not been a top-top Voldo player showing up at tournaments since Manta. By top-top I mean someone who is winning major tournaments or coming close. Goofus, ARU, Bibulus, and Ahriman and Enkindu are all excellent (and much better than me, goes without saying) players but I've never seen any of them beat Malek, Whoazz, Thuggish, Oof, etc at FSAK or any other tournament that video has been posted of. And the game has evolved a ton since Manta has been active. Am I forgetting someone or not giving someone enough credit?
I personally put Voldo-Ivy at 5:5. Voldo has decent good long range tools that go a long way, but facing forward he has very poor movement which is very detrimental, so he is in heavy danger of being spaced out for long periods and getting his soul gauge hammered (this happened a lot to Partisan vs Eli, granted his Voldo is basic at the moment but it holds at a higher level). Also while 214B is very punishable, it's still an excellent tool as it beats A+B, 1K, 2A+B, 3A, 4A, grab, AA, basically every tool that Voldo would want to use. The only real solution is holding G which is not a great solution because it's so passive and further opens you up to eating soul gauge damage as you keep blocking.
Partisan: the ivy matchup page also gives Amy the edge vs Ivy. So according to the Ivy pros at least, she is weak to 2/3 of the other top characters, which presumably would argue against her being the best tournament legal character. I leave it to you to argue with the likes of malek :-).
Honestly I don't know what to make of the 4:6 matchup. When I see Malek's name signed to something it makes me want to shut up and accept it because he is 10 000 times better than I will ever be at this game. But he lists 236(A+B) as a tool vs Ivy (unless I misunderstand), that move is almost worthless except for punishing ridiculous things like christmas tree.
Ivy players in general seem to have some kind of complex, the number of bad matchups random Ivy players are giving her is ridiculous.
I need more anti-Ivy knowledge to comment in any real depth. The main thing I can say is that a lot of people put Voldo very high on tier lists without getting to know his moves at all. Many times I've seen people comment that Kilik is the weakest of the top tiers (and they don't include Ivy in the first place). leaving Voldo as the #1 or #2 best character in the game, which I don't agree with.
I think theory can only stay theory for so long, there has not been a top-top Voldo player showing up at tournaments since Manta. By top-top I mean someone who is winning major tournaments or coming close. Goofus, ARU, Bibulus, and Ahriman and Enkindu are all excellent (and much better than me, goes without saying) players but I've never seen any of them beat Malek, Whoazz, Thuggish, Oof, etc at FSAK or any other tournament that video has been posted of. And the game has evolved a ton since Manta has been active. Am I forgetting someone or not giving someone enough credit?
I personally put Voldo-Ivy at 5:5. Voldo has decent good long range tools that go a long way, but facing forward he has very poor movement which is very detrimental, so he is in heavy danger of being spaced out for long periods and getting his soul gauge hammered (this happened a lot to Partisan vs Eli, granted his Voldo is basic at the moment but it holds at a higher level). Also while 214B is very punishable, it's still an excellent tool as it beats A+B, 1K, 2A+B, 3A, 4A, grab, AA, basically every tool that Voldo would want to use. The only real solution is holding G which is not a great solution because it's so passive and further opens you up to eating soul gauge damage as you keep blocking.
Partisan: the ivy matchup page also gives Amy the edge vs Ivy. So according to the Ivy pros at least, she is weak to 2/3 of the other top characters, which presumably would argue against her being the best tournament legal character. I leave it to you to argue with the likes of malek :-).
LP
Premium Member
I am new school competitively. Guess you have to hear all of the X stuff that's brought up at our gatherings to get what I said, though. =P
And nobody cares about SC2 or 3 anymore; gotta play that update!
SCPartisan
Holy Moly
Hmm...
I just don't see how Ivy can possibly be disadvantaged vs Amy. I'm no Amy expert, but playing it myself I have to say it is probably the most enraging matchup I've ever had to put up with in this game. Maybe I just don't know how to stay in range and beat out her "reversal" tools while maintaining pressure. But seriously, out of all the characters I've played Eli with, Amy is BY FAR the hardest to win with (except for my Sets which is probably the worst thing you will ever see from me) O_o
I should also mention that Eli has decent anti-Amy game.
But regardless...
That matchup makes me want to smash furniture with my own face.
Eli123s
when it rains, it pours
This thread has become like anti character thread. Alot of useful information here. Anyone mind discussing some Lizardman and X stuff. Like some of their strengths/weakness, general strategies, and what are their anti-Ivy tools.
Ring
Lay still now
Eli,
LM 66A & X 2_85B > Ivy :p ok not really but these are most problematic moves imo.
LM 66A & X 2_85B > Ivy :p ok not really but these are most problematic moves imo.
You must play more abusive against Ivy. Amy's tools destroy pretty much everything Ivy has to offer. I'd have to write a wall of text about this matchup but I will only say that I play Amy myself on a pretty bad level yet last year I beat Malek's Ivy in a team tournament with her and almost won casual FT10 against him (10-8) using only 5 or 6 moves. All this because I was familiar with Ivy's frames and options.
SCPartisan
Holy Moly
I stand corrected :P
I'll actually do some homework on the matchup for next time and see if I can do better with Amy.
I'll actually do some homework on the matchup for next time and see if I can do better with Amy.
Sometimes vs Ivy, I feel like knowing Ivy is more important than knowing your own character. There's a lot of holes and bad frames in her game, but she is so complicated and you have so little time to react in the real game that it is difficult to find and exploit those openings. Meanwhile her spacing game and damage potential hurt you for making the smallest mistakes.
I think what you said Ring about how well you did vs Malek is fascinating, especially since Thugish (one of the best Amy players in the world we can probably agree) lost to two Ivy's at FSAK, Malek's and Whoazz.
PS: this implies that I should learn Ivy I suppose but I am terrible at complicated inputs and just frames, I can't do iMCF at all and so quit Yoshi, I can barely get Asta's grabs and can't even get the just, so I don't think I will ever be able to do Ivy's grabs or complicated moves.
I think what you said Ring about how well you did vs Malek is fascinating, especially since Thugish (one of the best Amy players in the world we can probably agree) lost to two Ivy's at FSAK, Malek's and Whoazz.
PS: this implies that I should learn Ivy I suppose but I am terrible at complicated inputs and just frames, I can't do iMCF at all and so quit Yoshi, I can barely get Asta's grabs and can't even get the just, so I don't think I will ever be able to do Ivy's grabs or complicated moves.
Ring
Lay still now
Yes, what you said is true. Knowing Ivy is a must. I think Thugish is the best Amy out there but since he doesn't train with a high level Ivy on a daily basis I can understand that it's hard for him to beat her. He defeated Malek at Cannes a few months ago , though.
Aside from iCS/SS and 5 hit JF (which is not needed, by far one of the worst risk/reward ratio JF in the game) she doesn't have any complicated moves. She just has 2-3 more moves than other characters and it's very difficult to remember all this, ESPECIALLY if you are not the one who is playing Ivy. SW, CL and WP are pretty much like 3 different characters, with completely different frames, moves, inputs, punishment options. combos, techtraps.. even 2K's have different properties in each stance. Add many glitches, stance shiftings etc and it's almost impossible to keep up with all this. For me it was easier because I know Ivy inside and out, I "think" like an Ivy player and can anticipate many of her moves ;)
Aside from iCS/SS and 5 hit JF (which is not needed, by far one of the worst risk/reward ratio JF in the game) she doesn't have any complicated moves. She just has 2-3 more moves than other characters and it's very difficult to remember all this, ESPECIALLY if you are not the one who is playing Ivy. SW, CL and WP are pretty much like 3 different characters, with completely different frames, moves, inputs, punishment options. combos, techtraps.. even 2K's have different properties in each stance. Add many glitches, stance shiftings etc and it's almost impossible to keep up with all this. For me it was easier because I know Ivy inside and out, I "think" like an Ivy player and can anticipate many of her moves ;)
SCPartisan
Holy Moly
Two matches uploaded today.
So far it's:
So far it's:
At least one other should be uploaded tonight.
VS
KrayzieCD
[11] Champion
But you forget that he got his revenge on Malek at THIS YEAR'S WCG in France. So that time, he beat one Ivy but lost to another. I find it funny that Ivy's winning all these tourneys but it seems like only a handful of people consider her top tier.
SCPartisan
Holy Moly
^^^
There was someone who called me out in one of my videos stating "Ivy is low tier and that she is disadvantaged vs most of the cast".They also called people idiots for complimenting me on the win :/
I died.