Tier Discussion

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o why does everyone keep saying that Siegfried is crap tier? They nerfed him, yes, but it wasn't THAT bad of a nerf. They largely just got rid of his comboable stuns, and that's about it. He's still stance heavy and hits like a titanium plated truck, and can still largely save himself from all attacks.
 
Nightmare seems really good. He has high damage, good pressure, strong mixups, useful BE attacks, good range, good punishers, a command grab, a low grab, many ring out moves, high guard damage, and his A+B is pretty unique and can be used to break up blockstrings. His CE has super high damage raw and can auto-GI for a really long time, on top of all that.
 
Ok, so I just fought Natsu consistently enough to declare that I'm agree with everyone that she needs a nerf. She should not be putting out that much damage for how fast she is. She did more damage than Siegfried's strongest moves.
 
Once people start understanding Natsu's tricks, you'll see her go down in the rankings. Yeah, she does a lot of damage, but she's also highly punishable. Once you learn her stuff, she can easily eat a ton of damage just by block or stepping some of her more powerful stuff. She's a high risk, high reward character.

I think within the first two months people are going to realize that the insane damage some characters can do isn't going to be the sole reason for tiers. Several characters are up there, because they can get off quite a bit of damage, while characters on the lower end are there because they don't seem that strong with their lower ended damage. But players will soon see why some characters like Viola aren't low tier and while upper tiered characters like Cervantes aren't really upper tier.
 
I agree with the fact that once you start to learn to evade/interrupt PO bullshit from Natsu she isn't that scary. Although, Natsu players will figure out more just like we'll figure out more so nobody can say for sure. 4A+B can be 8K or whatever on reaction online even so you shouldn't really get hit by that too much aside from being trapped.
 
Windstar said:
Once people start understanding Natsu's tricks, you'll see her go down in the rankings. Yeah, she does a lot of damage, but she's also highly punishable. Once you learn her stuff, she can easily eat a ton of damage just by block or stepping some of her more powerful stuff. She's a high risk, high reward character.

I think within the first two months people are going to realize that the insane damage some characters can do isn't going to be the sole reason for tiers. Several characters are up there, because they can get off quite a bit of damage, while characters on the lower end are there because they don't seem that strong with their lower ended damage. But players will soon see why some characters like Viola aren't low tier and while upper tiered characters like Cervantes aren't really upper tier.
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This is true, but I still, Natsu should NOT be hitting HARDER than Siegfried (or by that, Nightmare.) Either Natsu needs a nerf or Siegfried needs a buff. Natsu has far too many comboable moves to be taking chunks of the health bar with a single attack.
 
Hardly no mention of Hilde at all in SC5.

Not sure why, played quite a bit online and im up to something like 240 wins / 30 losses so shes gotta be up there somewhere. She's changed so much from SC4 and her ring out game is all but gone.

Mainly have problems fighting with Natsu, Sieg and Mitsu so I imagine each of those are above her.
 
Doesn't work like that caseh. Personal records and matches mean nothing. A tier list assumes tournament level competition not random online matchups. And thats where characters start to have issues.

Hilde for example seems underpowered. Her damage is down right sad, her CE blows, and she's had the issue she was always meant to have. Namely, she can punish step, or she can poke and set up crazy damage, but not both. Now some retooling of her playstyle is in order and maybe people will find a way to make that work. Even if they do that though it's hard to say she's on the same level as say nightmare who got a pretty decent CE and some great BE's.

So then because i've had more time with the game, some random thoughts on the cast-
My scale
Top
Good
Viable
Not viable.

aPat- good. Possibly top. His game revolves around the JF twister, but that's hardly an issue for me let alone a competent player. Once you get that down his ability to punish and counter hit becomes scary. His damage is high, his moves are pretty safe, and he's got viable things to spend meter on. His CE is low damage but 8 frames which is insanely fast, and his BE options mostly just up his damage and give him better pressure and punishes. Having combo throws means he can setup some nasty damage off an A+G or a command B+G throw as well.

Aeon- Seems flawed, but he could work. His guard gauge game is surprisingly good, but without meter his only stance is an afterthought at best. He lacks quick lows from an initial glance and his launchers are pretty slow and hugely unsafe. That said his damage is pretty nice. Shame about his BBB. Maybe viable.

Algol- Possibly very good. Algol i think is the easiest example of a meter dependent character. Without meter it seems like his gameplan is a little sub par. Basically space/fight to set up bubbles. His damage is ok without meter. WITH meter though algol is a beast. His damage goes through the roof and his setups become just as nasty. I can easily see algol as the character who routinely loses the first two rounds, only to sweep back thanks to his crazy damage now that he's got the meter to kill with. He'll only get better as people figure out how to manage his meter in combo's and setups better.

Asta- Better than i hoped for. Probably viable. Possibly good. I don't think asta will wind up in top, but after screwing around with him I think he's got enough of a viable game given the changes he's gotten to still be a threat. He's going to suffer as people figure out his gimmicks, but it seems his fundamentals are solid enough to get around that. It's just the usual issue for a SC grappler where a ton of his game and damage will be decided off an A or B break. I do hate that his CE seems so extremely niche. The stupid white glow at his feet makes it worthless as a substitution for his A or B command throws.

Cervantes- iGDR, good damage, and a useful CE. No doubt he'll be viable and I wouldn't be surprised if he wound up in top tier. He does seem like one of the characters hurt the most from the loss of portions of his movelist, but I don't think that's going to hurt him so much we won't be seeing everyones favorite pirate.

Damp- I don't have him since i didn't bother to buy from best buy. That said from what i've seen....gonna guess he's just a tad gimmicky.

Devil jin- I can still see him being banned in the end. Not sure if he should be, but he's got enough going for him with enough drama around it that it's probably just not worth allowing him. He's more than good enough to hit high tier though.

Ezio- I honestly don't know. He seems viable. That's about all i've got from him so far. He does feel unsafe, but I haven't had enough time with him to test, and i'm not sure how he deals with some of the better tactics.

Hilde- already mentioned above but i'm not even sure if she'll be a viable choice. She's got so much going against her and I haven't seen anything she can do that others don't do better. Her gimmick got kicked in the teeth HARD.

Ivy- I'm kinda shocked so far at how bad she is. Ivy's always been at least somewhat good forever it feels like. Range + command grab is a nice combo. This Ivy however seems to suffer from having a terrible CE(stupid white glow again), and while i'm glad she doesn't have a 50 page move list, I'm not sure it actually works at the end of the day. I'm hoping someone can show us she's still a monster, but as of right now I'd say she's not viable.

Lexia- Viable. Probably top or near it. Good meter usage, good mixup, good damage, good setups. Not much more to say except she even seems remarkably safe.

Maxi- I've never understood maxi and i'm not going to pretend I do now. All i know is i've heard he's better than he has been so yay for that, and i've seen him taking some tournaments. From what I do understand we'll know how good he really is in two months or so when people have had time to sit down and really figure out how good all his setups are, and which ones can be easily dealt with.

Mitsu- Viable...maybe. His meter is fine and while he's not what he once was I don't think it's impossible to win with him. That said he strikes me as one of the most screwed members of the cast thanks to the 8G glitch.

Natsu- Good. Yeah i expect her to drop a little as people manage her gimmicks better, but dear god the damage she's putting out is just silly. And she can still play a safe and slower paced game if she needs to.

Nightmare- Viable. Possibly even good. Nighty seems to be a gimmick machine still but his RO game is scary, especially with meter, and the damage he puts out is just mean. It won't take too many wrong guesses for him to tear you in half. He's even got a nasty guard game.

Patro- Good. Easy damage off of decent moves. Good meter options. Nice command throw. Just solid all around. I don't see him winding up in top, but I wouldn't be that surprised if it happened.

Pyrra- Top most likely. 236B! Who knew. She's a sister(more so than her brother) and thus awesome. Really not much more to say except she does seem hurt by 8G, so that might change things depending on what happens there.

O pyrra- Top again. Sister syndrome + damage.

Ralph- Viable? Maybe? I really don't know. Ralphs always struck me as having a slightly different style than the standard SC character, but he's usually wound up with one or two flaws that just make him inferior. I'm not sure if he's got all the tools he needs this time. I am at least worried about his low game.

Sieg- Maybe viable. He just annoys me because i have little doubt he'd actually be pretty decent if he didn't do fucking terrible damage. I have no idea why he puts out such small pain for a good hit, and his good damage seems to only come from risky setups. Nightmare is somewhat similar but he's got great damage off of everything.

Tira- Fuck if i know. I'm guessing viable. Her damage seems ok, but as always her biggest issue is stance management, and jolly seems to still suck. Thankfully she can at least blow meter to get out of jolly and start putting out pain. oh and she's still one of 2 characters who can kill herself, but sadly she doesn't do it off a crazy strong unblockable.

Viola- It's still too early. I see where a lot of people are coming from when they complain about her setups and damage, but I still think she's got enough depth that there's tricks to figure out yet. If things don't change from today...probably not viable, but even then i'm not sure.

Voldo- Haven't had time to even look for more than a few minutes. I'd guess at least viable from what i've seen. Dunno if he'll climb higher than that. His CE seems pretty meh, but i feel like i'm missing something.

Xiba- Good, possibly top. Good CE, good meter usage, nice damage. Xiba just screams solid to me. Only issue is he might be too unsafe vs the top.

Yoshi- good? I've never been good at yoshi. Seems alright and he's still got his stance games and gazillion gimmicks. That said the nerf to nut punch might hurt him more than i know.

ZWEI- pretty much see viola.

Things i'd really like to happen in a patch-
Remove 8G
Small nerf to natsu dmg.
Buffs to sieg, ivy, hilde and maybe a rework of certain viola and ZWEI mechanics.
 
Eji1700 said:
Doesn't work like that caseh. Personal records and matches mean nothing. A tier list assumes tournament level competition not random online matchups. And thats where characters start to have issues.

Hilde for example seems underpowered. Her damage is down right sad, her CE blows, and she's had the issue she was always meant to have. Namely, she can punish step, or she can poke and set up crazy damage, but not both. Now some retooling of her playstyle is in order and maybe people will find a way to make that work. Even if they do that though it's hard to say she's on the same level as say nightmare who got a pretty decent CE and some great BE's.

So then because i've had more time with the game, some random thoughts on the cast-
My scale
Top
Good
Viable
Not viable.

aPat- good. Possibly top. His game revolves around the JF twister, but that's hardly an issue for me let alone a competent player. Once you get that down his ability to punish and counter hit becomes scary. His damage is high, his moves are pretty safe, and he's got viable things to spend meter on. His CE is low damage but 8 frames which is insanely fast, and his BE options mostly just up his damage and give him better pressure and punishes. Having combo throws means he can setup some nasty damage off an A+G or a command B+G throw as well.

Aeon- Seems flawed, but he could work. His guard gauge game is surprisingly good, but without meter his only stance is an afterthought at best. He lacks quick lows from an initial glance and his launchers are pretty slow and hugely unsafe. That said his damage is pretty nice. Shame about his BBB. Maybe viable.

Algol- Possibly very good. Algol i think is the easiest example of a meter dependent character. Without meter it seems like his gameplan is a little sub par. Basically space/fight to set up bubbles. His damage is ok without meter. WITH meter though algol is a beast. His damage goes through the roof and his setups become just as nasty. I can easily see algol as the character who routinely loses the first two rounds, only to sweep back thanks to his crazy damage now that he's got the meter to kill with. He'll only get better as people figure out how to manage his meter in combo's and setups better.

Asta- Better than i hoped for. Probably viable. Possibly good. I don't think asta will wind up in top, but after screwing around with him I think he's got enough of a viable game given the changes he's gotten to still be a threat. He's going to suffer as people figure out his gimmicks, but it seems his fundamentals are solid enough to get around that. It's just the usual issue for a SC grappler where a ton of his game and damage will be decided off an A or B break. I do hate that his CE seems so extremely niche. The stupid white glow at his feet makes it worthless as a substitution for his A or B command throws.

Cervantes- iGDR, good damage, and a useful CE. No doubt he'll be viable and I wouldn't be surprised if he wound up in top tier. He does seem like one of the characters hurt the most from the loss of portions of his movelist, but I don't think that's going to hurt him so much we won't be seeing everyones favorite pirate.

Damp- I don't have him since i didn't bother to buy from best buy. That said from what i've seen....gonna guess he's just a tad gimmicky.

Devil jin- I can still see him being banned in the end. Not sure if he should be, but he's got enough going for him with enough drama around it that it's probably just not worth allowing him. He's more than good enough to hit high tier though.

Ezio- I honestly don't know. He seems viable. That's about all i've got from him so far. He does feel unsafe, but I haven't had enough time with him to test, and i'm not sure how he deals with some of the better tactics.

Hilde- already mentioned above but i'm not even sure if she'll be a viable choice. She's got so much going against her and I haven't seen anything she can do that others don't do better. Her gimmick got kicked in the teeth HARD.

Ivy- I'm kinda shocked so far at how bad she is. Ivy's always been at least somewhat good forever it feels like. Range + command grab is a nice combo. This Ivy however seems to suffer from having a terrible CE(stupid white glow again), and while i'm glad she doesn't have a 50 page move list, I'm not sure it actually works at the end of the day. I'm hoping someone can show us she's still a monster, but as of right now I'd say she's not viable.

Lexia- Viable. Probably top or near it. Good meter usage, good mixup, good damage, good setups. Not much more to say except she even seems remarkably safe.

Maxi- I've never understood maxi and i'm not going to pretend I do now. All i know is i've heard he's better than he has been so yay for that, and i've seen him taking some tournaments. From what I do understand we'll know how good he really is in two months or so when people have had time to sit down and really figure out how good all his setups are, and which ones can be easily dealt with.

Mitsu- Viable...maybe. His meter is fine and while he's not what he once was I don't think it's impossible to win with him. That said he strikes me as one of the most screwed members of the cast thanks to the 8G glitch.

Natsu- Good. Yeah i expect her to drop a little as people manage her gimmicks better, but dear god the damage she's putting out is just silly. And she can still play a safe and slower paced game if she needs to.

Nightmare- Viable. Possibly even good. Nighty seems to be a gimmick machine still but his RO game is scary, especially with meter, and the damage he puts out is just mean. It won't take too many wrong guesses for him to tear you in half. He's even got a nasty guard game.

Patro- Good. Easy damage off of decent moves. Good meter options. Nice command throw. Just solid all around. I don't see him winding up in top, but I wouldn't be that surprised if it happened.

Pyrra- Top most likely. 236B! Who knew. She's a sister(more so than her brother) and thus awesome. Really not much more to say except she does seem hurt by 8G, so that might change things depending on what happens there.

O pyrra- Top again. Sister syndrome + damage.

Ralph- Viable? Maybe? I really don't know. Ralphs always struck me as having a slightly different style than the standard SC character, but he's usually wound up with one or two flaws that just make him inferior. I'm not sure if he's got all the tools he needs this time. I am at least worried about his low game.

Sieg- Maybe viable. He just annoys me because i have little doubt he'd actually be pretty decent if he didn't do fucking terrible damage. I have no idea why he puts out such small pain for a good hit, and his good damage seems to only come from risky setups. Nightmare is somewhat similar but he's got great damage off of everything.

Tira- Fuck if i know. I'm guessing viable. Her damage seems ok, but as always her biggest issue is stance management, and jolly seems to still suck. Thankfully she can at least blow meter to get out of jolly and start putting out pain. oh and she's still one of 2 characters who can kill herself, but sadly she doesn't do it off a crazy strong unblockable.

Viola- It's still too early. I see where a lot of people are coming from when they complain about her setups and damage, but I still think she's got enough depth that there's tricks to figure out yet. If things don't change from today...probably not viable, but even then i'm not sure.

Voldo- Haven't had time to even look for more than a few minutes. I'd guess at least viable from what i've seen. Dunno if he'll climb higher than that. His CE seems pretty meh, but i feel like i'm missing something.

Xiba- Good, possibly top. Good CE, good meter usage, nice damage. Xiba just screams solid to me. Only issue is he might be too unsafe vs the top.

Yoshi- good? I've never been good at yoshi. Seems alright and he's still got his stance games and gazillion gimmicks. That said the nerf to nut punch might hurt him more than i know.

ZWEI- pretty much see viola.

Things i'd really like to happen in a patch-
Remove 8G
Small nerf to natsu dmg.
Buffs to sieg, ivy, hilde and maybe a rework of certain viola and ZWEI mechanics.
Click to expand...

You've got it pretty down set actually from what I can see. Nerf Natsu because damage output with her is bullsh*t. Beef Sieg, Ivy, Hilde, and Viola because the lack of damage is insulting.

I main Siegfried, and secondary Viola, Nightmare,and Devil Jin. Sieg definitely needs more damage output because of the severe nerfs to his stun game and speed.

Viola seems too weak for her difficulty, even orb attacks barely tickle. I've seen some good Violas, but it seems they have to keep their opponents CONSTANTLY on the defensive to have any real advantage.

Devil Jin would only be banned due to complaints. I'll admit to see the computers spam the special stance uppercut is annoying, it doesn't help he's got nothing working for him other than his insane speed and laser beams. He has neglegible low game or horizontal game
 
Marvelous, i spend 2-3 years mastering Hilde in SC4 only for them to make her the next 'Rock' in SC5...

Regardless, I like her and i'm having some good games with her online so i'll stick with it for now. utside of the combos listed in her movelist I've not found anything else which can't be blocked or countered. :( :sc4hil1:
 
caseh said:
Marvelous, i spend 2-3 years mastering Hilde in SC4 only for them to make her the next 'Rock' in SC5...

Regardless, I like her and i'm having some good games with her online so i'll stick with it for now. utside of the combos listed in her movelist I've not found anything else which can't be blocked or countered. :( :sc4hil1:
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She's got more. Go check her subform. And besides i'm far from a serious authority on this game. It'll be awhile before the tournament results really mean something, and complicated characters like hilde take time. This is just my initial impression, and you've shown that at the very least she's more than viable for online stuff. Keep at it. I'm more than likely wrong on half of that list and I wouldn't be that surprised if hilde turns out to be one of them.

Either way she's far from Rock tier.
 
Dampierre's got a safe combo with a potential meterless 100 damage if he's lucky. If not, it still gets pretty high and he's got a lot of stuff to work with, even with his random stances. One of his strengths is his random stances and players who play as Dampierre need to be on the ball and prepared for when it happens.

Current discoveries on Leixia reveal that its hard for her to hit 100 damage in combos without 1.5 bars of meter. So far, she can hit 115 damage with a WS B BE, BT B+K, CE combo. Other options can get pretty close (90 damage off one BE from 44[A] for example). Otherwise, compared to some speedy and power-based characters she's on the low end. The good thing is that she can maintain a strong offensive better than characters like Cervantes, Pat, or Omega and her ability to break guards helps with that. I don't think she's top, however, for now I'm going to say she's on a competitive level and sits at a mid-tier area. It's really too early for tier discussions.

Hilde's basic normals are incredibly good right now. She's very linear, but a lot of her new options give her plenty of time to stock a charge and combo with it. Her CE is also one of the best in the game.

One of Viola's strengths is her orb doesn't create vulnerabilities when its aGI'ed. Viola has some remarkable safety and the ability to fight from a variety of distances.

I don't think Alpha is top right now. His ability to punish is really strong, but he seems somewhat lacking in other areas. He's certainly flexible, but he can't really maintain an offensive like some other characters can. Though the nice thing about that, is that he can force players to be ultra cautious around him once he has at least one bar of meter. He's kinda similar to Omega in many ways in that his game revolves around punishing mistakes. I still think he's very competitive, but I'm not quite sure I'd rate him as strong as others would.

Right now, I feel Pat's really sluggish for the range of many of his moves. His 6BBB's range in incredibly small for its range average impact frames. However, lots of players seem to have great success with him and Pat's really all about pushing the advantages he gets to maximize his power. Can't really do a lot of strings with him like Xiba, Natsu, Leixia or others. Once he gets in though, and gets that advantage he needs, he can hit pretty hard.

ZWEI and Aeon are pretty hard to figure out right now. I think they're both good, but it may be a while before we can really know what they're capable of.

In the end, though, I think every character is pretty capable and competitive. Its still early, barely more than a week into game and we simply don't have enough game time - with all the characters - under our belts to get a good sense of what everyone's capable of. Right now, I think the players who specific characters are only really looking at the faults that their characters have, while outsiders are salivating over how strong these characters are. I think the answer is going to be somewhere in the middle, and I think we're going to be pretty happy with it. Hopefully, if there's some truly broken and unbalancing stuff found, Project Soul will provide a patch to fix it.
 
Windstar said:
Her CE is also one of the best in the game.
.
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I'm curious as to what i'm missing here. My impression was that it did pretty weak damage raw, even less in combo's, and didn't always give full animation off of various stuns? Am I wrong or did I miss something?
 
The only things I am certain of right is Natsu's damage output is too damn high for how fast and safe she is, and Raph needs some fundamental buffs. Tira may need some good-sized buffs also.
 
We haven't fully seen what Just guarding will do to some of the assumed "top tiers".
We haven't fully seen what guard burst does for some of the assumed "low tiers".
We more than likely haven't seen all of the tricks or the movelists themselves of all the characters.

Way too early for tiers at this point. Especially if we're basing everything on damage and safety.
 
Discussion shouldn't be discounted imho. Just don't go out of your way to make a list, instead focus on current "status" of characters that you know shit about.
 
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