Tier Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
^That is true, but like I said a combination of both makes for the "best" tierlist, i.e. tournament results over a long period of time AND theorycrafting where we are just taking a deeper look into the characters theoretical potential.
If its just the latter one though tier-lists become a joke. In that case alpha patronum would be SSSSSSSSS-Tier, just like Bryan would have been in T6. I hate to always pull out the Bryan example, but its so obvious though. Potentially he had an unblockable mid-launcher with the speed of a normal move...in theory unbeatable. In practice there was one player on the face of the earth that could pull it off every now and then, so no one ever got the idea of Bryan being supergod tier as its just not practicable.
 
windirein said:
No they werent. Just like what we do here, thats just a random tierlist. Its in no way "true". Asian players have a different playstyle and might think differently of high-executional characters.
Click to expand...

Two things I'd like to see an answer for, and more than likely I'm done with the subject. First, who, in your "educated" opinion is top 3, 4 , or 5 in T5DR, if somehow the Mishimas aren't. Second, you acknowledge that Mishimas are tops in TTT2. Asia is our main source of TTT2 info, since about 3 American arcades have the game, and have only had it for < 2 months. So, it's ok for Asia to tell us that they are S-tier, and therefore top 5 in Tag 2, but Asia isn't allowed to tell us who is good in DR? Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

Back on topic, since this isn't TZ, I don't see Pyrrha being any lower than "Queen of the Second Tier." Something to be said for being able to get a 60+ dmg punish on -14 to -16 stuff, where most characters can only punish with AA, BB, or K. One character I am not seeing people talk about enough is Algol. Odds are, he wins a round for free no matter what because of "land any knockdown or stun move into chair." Since the game gives you a bar when you are facing game point, he'll always have the opportunity to win a free round. As a matter of fact, that's my nickname for the chair super, "Free Round."
 
windirein said:
No they werent. Just like what we do here, thats just a random tierlist. Its in no way "true". Asian players have a different playstyle and might think differently of high-executional characters. It still doesnt make it true in any way. As long as they dont pop up all the time in the top 8 of big tourneys its all bollox. And yeah, needless to say they didnt.
Click to expand...

If jang iksu had played 5, they would have tournament results for you to dote on. iceman is right.
 
the balance right now is nasty compared to four in my opinion.

I feel like I never had to struggle so hard to win/lose with any other character in my fighting game days to do so with viola, in four talim felt so much better, I mean sure talim was bad, but I feel like the difference between low tier and high tier in four was so much smaller than now, where pyrrha almost plays her self and viola is an uphill battle against almost anyone with a weapon larger than a stick.

I hope the next patch does something, whether it be a universal damage reduction or what I don't know.

Viola would be really solid in four I think, but when compared to the rest of the cast and their damage output and someone like pyrrha's safety pose such a challenge when her reward is not even close to being as worth the risk when compared with some one like alpha pat.

I think that mid tier in this game is actually excellent, and no one there greatly over powers the lower tier characters, but I think that at most, they should be top tier. Their potential should be the standard for the better characters in the game, because characters like leixia don't have glaring holes in their game play, and have GREAT tools, like wr B(BE) while still maintaining a lower but respectable damage output and safety.

The game needs tweaks naturally as did four, but I don't think that they are anywhere close to the same balance level as each other just yet.

-wow that post was all over the place xD
 
I think the balance in this game is good for most characters but it seems like they didn't quite know what to do with the more complex ones. There's alpha pat handing out damage like beads on mardi gras and then there's viola zwei and yoshi who comparatively have a ridiculously hard time competing. It seems to me that there are two groups of characters those who require a ton of effort to win and those who don't.
 
@Iceman: The TTT2 Tiers are based on tourneys that have already happened and thus are valid AND on logic. Mishimas have the best launcher in the game and TTT2 is completly launcher-based. So having the best launcher and being able to Tag someone in to profit from it (wallcarries and damage, oki etc. stuff that would be subpar on the respective mishima by himself) automatically makes them S-tier. Besides, the players that are already playing TTT2 (or were) in the US are agreeing on this and also use/used mishimas to great success -->consensus about their tier placement is reached.

In your example theres no consensus though, its just highly opinionated without any tournament results or regulars backing it up. I been playing/following T5 from the beginning and at no point ive witnessed a mishima domination that justifies S-tier placement and ive literally watched every tourney avail to the web.

But yeah, we are kinda getting ot. Just wanted to express how I think tier-lists should be done cuz Im not agreeing with the "maximum" potential thingy as long as it stays in theory and is practically unachievable.
In case of alpha time will tell. So far I have seen a few that got their execution done with a fairly high %age, but theres still alot of room to improve. I cant tell if its actually possible to be spot-on with his moves 100% of the time and how it would place him in tier-lists. Maybe hes just a case of bryan fury with his potential to be unreachable by a non-cpu player.
 
imo...

top (no particular order) pyrrha, natsu, cervantes, alpha patroklos

high mid is pretty big, mid also seems pretty big, low ??? people say aeon but the game is pretty new and he doesn't seem unusuable, people said sigfried was bad too but that french player seemed to be doing quite well with him. doesn't seem like anyone is just unusable/ass.
 
Given that I am not as knowledgeable, regarding game mechanics, as most of you guys here I still have a few impressions to share.
I agree with everyone who thinks that Pyrrha is very strong at the moment. She has obviously some of the strongest mixups and punishes in the game, although she becomes kinda predictable as soon as you learn how to read her mixups to some degree.
I haven't had the chance to test this properly until now, but I am under the impression that Raphael, Kilik (Xiba) and Hilde have suffered from the SC4 to SC5 transition.
Z.W.E.I is the character in which I see the least potential right now, since he is pretty foreseeable and his mixups seem to be kinda weak.


At the moment this is to take with a grain of salt still because, as I said, I am not as experienced at SC5 as I am at SC3 and SC4.
However SC5 is A LOT of fun and I am eager to get better at it :)
 
The largest problem with tiers from what I'm seeing is drawing the line. I've heard some people say tiers in involve perfect level settings, as if god were playing the character. This, on the other hand, is false, because difficulty of use is a factor in deciding a character's tier.

After playing the game a little more, I think I can safely speculate some tiers for characters. I'll go by grades.

S - Natsu, A Patroklos, Devil Jin

A - Mitsurugi, Astaroth, Cervantes, Pyrrha, Pyrrha O, Xiba

B - Patroklos, Nightmare, Algol, Yoshimitsu, Leixia,

C - Siegfried, Maxi, Voldo, Aeon, Ezio

D - Hilde, Tira, Raphael, Z.W.E.I, Viola

E - Ivy

I did not rate Dampierre, because I have yet to play a human Dampierre.
These are all based on my time with the game, and can't say it's a professional opinion, considering my rating are judged by online play, and friend's play.
 
^ I pretty much agree with that list except I would definitely place Maxi in A tier. He has good mix-ups, good speed, and insane damage output. His safety isn't all that bad either from what I can tell.

Xiba IMO is probably Mid, but tbh he feels like a gimmicky character that will be used less and less as people figure out how to beat him. I used him a bit, and I've come to the conclusion that he's "not that great". I feel like his move list is way way WAY too short compared to Kilik's in sc4.

And I don't think Ivy deserves a tier all by herself. Afterall, LinkRick won a major with her. I do agree that she's a weak character, but not weaker than the ones in the D list.

Also, I don't see what's all the fuss about D-jin. Sure, he's super fast and safe, but his damage is low, and his range is complete ass.

Weakest character in the game: Viola, hands down.
Strongest character in the game: Either A-Pat, Omega P, or Natsu.
Most underestimated character: Siegfried.
(that last line was probably biased because I've mained Sieg since sc3)
 
damn-I-Suck said:
^ I pretty much agree with that list except I would definitely place Maxi in A tier. He has good mix-ups, good speed, and insane damage output. His safety isn't all that bad either from what I can tell.
Click to expand...
The entire system's built for offense characters like him.

I see Maxi going places.
 
Yeah this game really does seem to favor offense. I think Pyrrah, aPat, Natsu, Viola, Maxi are all going to end up pretty high. The mixup pressure and inability to JG as easily their faster attacks combined with their big damage kind of make characters like Asta and Sieg obsolete. Seriously, the faster characters having better damage output than the slow ones?
 
I don't understand why Viola is considered so low-tier. Yeah, her individual attacks do negligable damage, but her pressure game is insane. Or am I doing something wrong?

Maybe I'll understand better after I put a few hundred more matches under my belt...
 
Zyrusticae said:
I don't understand why Viola is considered so low-tier. Yeah, her individual attacks do negligable damage, but her pressure game is insane. Or am I doing something wrong?

Maybe I'll understand better after I put a few hundred more matches under my belt...
Click to expand...

The problem with Viola is that it has to remain with constant pressure, to the point where any reprieve would result in instant enemy advantage.
 
Having played more and watched more footage my new for fun list-
Apat- High to S. I think he'd be fine if he just didn't hit SO damn hard(or if others hit as hard...one of the two). He's already got 2 great punish moves and 2 combo throws. I'm pretty sure he doesn't need to hit as hard as he is.

Aeon- Everyone keeps saying he's flawed. From what little i know he does seem like he's bottom tier. I'd love to be wrong but his high damage just doesn't make up for the fact that against someone who knows what they're doing he seems like he has to be INSANELY risky to really land anything.

Algol- I'm still putting him at high, but i wouldn't be surprised if i was wrong. His meter game is just so scary that i think it offsets his bleh normal game, and even then it's not that bad at all.

Asta- I really really really really want him to be mid. I'm hoping he can make it. Sadly i'd say he might very well be low right now. If simply because certain matches are just so crazy against him(apat.)

Cervantes- I'd still say high, but i could see him fall to mid. Certainly not lower.

Damp- Still no earthly idea.

Devil Jin- of all the scare about him the only thing i've seen so far that appeared really insane was his ringout game. Other than that he seems good, but not great. I dunno. Still banned so not really an issue but if he wasn't i could see mid tier. At least on infinite levels. I'll admit i haven't looked into him too much.

Ezio- Mid to low? Honestly don't know, but he still strikes me as too much work for too little payoff(like asta really). Could easily be wrong on this one.

Hilde- Mid/low. She's just so hurt from overnerfing. She lost the ability to charge and attack, which is fine, but she doesn't do enough to justify it. That said i haven't seen more than maybe one good hilde so i'm open to being wrong again.

Ivy- Mid at the very least. Maybe more? She's not old ivy thats for sure but it seems like she's got enough tools to at least be a full character and pull out wins against legit competition.

Lexia- Mid/high. As the game has gone on she seems a little less scary but I still don't think she's got any crushing matchups that just tear her in half.

Maxi- high. His damage is immense and his strings don't suck. I'm just really hoping that just guard doesn't eventually ruin him, but so far I think he's more than competitive.

Mitsu- High/mid. Right on the line maybe but i wouldn't be surprised to see someone win with him. 2kb and 3B BE are both quite good and he gets nice damage with meter.

Natsu- High, but i could see mid. The one thing i will say is i can't see S. I'm still not sure that she isn't destroyed by certain matchups(pyrrah, opyrrah, apat). I still see issues for her vs a player who's determined to turtle her out.

Nightmare- mid? I mean watching people win major tournaments with him was certainly food for thought. I keep hearing how unsafe he is and how rough his stance game is, but it doesn't seem to change that it's not totally broken and he hits like a truck.

Patro- mid? Maybe low? I see nothing so bad about patro and yet I never see him. Maybe he's too slow or can't punish or is too unsafe and i just don't know it.

Pyrrah- Still say high. Even though she's not quite as scary as you figure her out, having the stab and nasty damage when she does get you is still a huge factor.

Opyrrah- I almost never see her, and then when i do she absolutely destroys her opponent. What am I missing? Anyways with that in mind high. Her stab damage is insane.

Raph- Possibly low. I want him to be better, but the more i learn about him the worse i feel for raph players. His step options really are rough and although he can kill gauge he seems very limited.

Sieg- My issue with siege is every single time i start thinking of him as better and better I suddenly see a hit just whiff right through the opponent and am left thinking WTF? At this point i'd say mid though. Maybe he's got some insurmountable matchup or something. I dunno.

Tira- Fuck if i know tier. If i had to guess i'd say mid. Finally having ways to change stance seems huge for her and gloomy fucking HURTS.

Viola- I'd still say mid at this point but i can see low on the horizon. I still think she deserves credit for having nasty pressure if she can get it and a really evil ringout game.

Xiba- mid. Might have safety issues but he seems to have enough tools to get the job done. Just not as well as the high tiers.

Yoshi- Another fuck if i know. By his lack of showing i'd just guess mid, but i've seen so little of him that wasn't week one gimmick play. Nothing that i can see screams low tier.

ZWEI- Another "realllly want him to be mid". I'm still not sure what to say though. If anything the one flaw i can see is he's SUPER meter reliant and doesn't appear to be as solid as someone like algol without it.
 
Eji1700 said:
Snip
Click to expand...

You forgot Voldo.

I will further expand on some of these.

Yoshimitsu I would concede as high tiers, he has very high mix up and can easily play a lot of mind games with his opponent, especially with his seventy or so stances.

Sieg can claw his way to high tier depending on the player, but there's still a few things that need fixing about it (like the sword going through his opponents -.-, and I'm still standing behind a small damage buff.)

Tira is a solid mid, she's got nothing impressive, but nothing standing against her either.
 
^
Her damage is more than negligable, its laughable. She hits you with 3 mixups and you BB her and it has the same effect :P

@Was meant for the viola post. 3 posts popped up while I was typing? oO
 
Damage nerfs: A-Pat, Oprah, Natsu.

Damage buffs: Sieg, Viola, Aeon

As far as I'm concerned these are the only balance changes that are needed at this time.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom