Patch 1.03 Viola Changes

taffertier

taffertier

[10] Knight
So about that patch... It seems Viola's Set 6B+K no longer forces the opponent to stand on block.

This isnt the end of the world certainly. It doesnt make her garbage, but it is a pretty drastic nerf as she can no longer get those throw mix ups on block like before.

Or maybe i'm not looking at the big picture, in case anyone has anything to add to this. Does anyone else have anything discovered that is a buff or fix? Cause this alone seems like a substantial nerf.

Edit: It would also seem that her CE no longer forces standing either, though i dont think this effects her all that much since the opponent is still in block stun and needs to deal with her incoming low / mid mix up.
 
I just checked today and you can still get a throw attempt if you do 6B+K 3A A_B+G because if they stay ducking they'll get hit by the 3A. BUT if they stand and block the 3A and crouch the 6B+K then it won't work, sadly. I don't think people will figure out you can duck it unless by mistake or if they use Viola. Hopefully, they won't realize it.
 
Ninjaguy446 said:
I just checked today and you can still get a throw attempt if you do 6B+K 3A A_B+G because if they stay ducking they'll get hit by the 3A. BUT if they stand and block the 3A and crouch the 6B+K then it won't work, sadly. I don't think people will figure out you can duck it unless by mistake or if they use Viola. Hopefully, they won't realize it.
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Hmm. Still looks like they can get out of the throw attempt if they know what they're doing. It will take some good guessing to do so however. The set up is still deadly, the throw just isnt guaranteed like before.
 
Ninjaguy446 said:
I concur. But maybe do you think they did this nerf because of her previous buffs?
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It's possible, if so than she seems to have evened out. This set up was a bit crazy before. Also it may just be luck but i havent noticed her 44A BE messing up at all. I did it over 10 times in a row and the ball worked every time.
 
taffertier said:
i havent noticed her 44A BE messing up at all. I did it over 10 times in a row and the ball worked every time.
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I have. Some nights not at all; some nights multiple times throughout the night. I still can't figure out what does it.
 
I've noticed it happens to me in training if I attempt to do too many of the same move back to back without recalling the ball first. I think that the games ability to track the position of the ball gets messed up. When it starts flying at odd angles I recall it and it recalls at an odd angle but usualy works fine after.

Also at certain angles against walls because the game has to re-position the ball if it sets outside the arena.
 
I haven't tested this (No PS3) but doesn't this mean you'd be able to see if they're standing or ducking when 6B+K connects?
 
yes, you can see that. What is better tho, you can also see if they are ducking or standing if they block CE, which you couldn't earlier, i think.
 
Yo I'm gunna load up the previous patch versions so I can abuse the broken stuff Viola had that was fixed in the patches, oh wait...

Yeah, personally I don't think Viola has ever gotten worse since her debut, only better.
 
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jwdinkc said:
I have. Some nights not at all; some nights multiple times throughout the night. I still can't figure out what does it.
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Yeah, it seems to be totally random when it does and doesn't happen.

To this day I think that Viola's buffs from 1.01 to 1.02 weren't really necessary. She was pretty solid beforehand...
 
Ikuwayo said:
On the bright side that means that we can mix-up throws with launchers.
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I put a like on your response. I don't think this is a nerf at all. I don't want set 6B+K to make them force stand on block because then 3B will be blocked %100 of the time. It's like I helped them or something. Having them not to force stand means more room for error at their part for me to launchy launch :) Also you have to take an account that people can get lucky to break throws, so why rely on throws over launchers? Plus launchers do way more damage.
 
WeaponX said:
I put a like on your response. I don't think this is a nerf at all. I don't want set 6B+K to make them force stand on block because then 3B will be blocked %100 of the time. It's like I helped them or something. Having them not to force stand means more room for error at their part for me to launchy launch :) Also you have to take an account that people can get lucky to break throws, so why rely on throws over launchers? Plus launchers do way more damage.
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That's not how it worked, "Because then 3B will be blocked %100 of the time" is an incorrect statement. SET 6B+K forced a standing position but did not affect your guard state.

Meaning, if you did SET 6B+K, the orb is blocked by a crouch blocking opponent, this forced them to stand, and immediately after the blocked orb you connect with 3B it would hit them and launch them. Even though they are in a standing position they are blocking the wrong way and get hit.

This also use to happen with her CE, because her CE would force an opponent into standing position, but they could still block lows correctly during the CE. Lows were not unblockable. But if you hit with a mid while they were blocking low (and being forced into a stand position) they would be hit.

The same is true in reverse. SET 44A BE forces the opponent into a crouching position, but they can still block mids. And if they try to block high while being forced into crouch position they will still be hit by a low because they blocked wrong.

However, what that meant was the old SET 6B+K would allow you to throw them and they were forced to tech it correctly, because they could not crouch it. Same with CE, if they were blocking your CE they had no way to avoid a throw and were forced to guess which throw you used, but now they can crouch under your throw attempt.

On the other hand, in 1.03 her CE is better. Before this patch you could not tell which direction they were blocking due to the forced stand state. But now in 1.03, once they block the CE you can visually see if they are crouch blocking or stand blocking. If you see them crouch blocking you can do a mid, and if you see them stand blocking you can confirm and do a low instead. This is good because a throw is really nothing compared to a full launch combo.
 
Xenozip:

I see. I didn't know that force stand still allows them to block low anyways. Well now as you mentioned, I would still actually like to see if they are crouching or not so I can make the precise decision to throw or 3B them.
 
Yeah, I think this only made Viola better; over 90% over the grab attempts I make after 6b+k connect.
 
This is a slight nerf (a justified one) but only really for some matchups. In situations where you got guaranteed throw attempts, now you get a 3B/throw mixup right? r/r was 24.5 damage (average throw damage multiplied by chance they won't break the throw), assuming throw choice and throw breaks vary 50-50. Now there are 4 cases:

They duck, you throw: They get a throw punish that they are probably prepared for. Damage taken varies from 20-80+ meterless, sky's the limit with meter.

They duck, you 3B. You get 74 damage BnB, more with meter. Actually you could choose to 44A here and hit confirm for the BE for 90+.

They guard, you throw. Expected value of 24.5 damage on the break mixup.

They guard, you 3B. They get an i14 punish or a free mixup. Or if you 44A, you get a delay mixup with the B or BE which is pretty safe.

Really, whether this is a nerf or not depends on how often they like to duck. The optimal defense would be something like "always stand and guard, except rarely duck" or "represent the 'always stand and guard,' then adapt when the time is right." This way, damage usually minimized to throw attempts, except when you decide to duck that one time. Of course, the Viola player could predict this adaptation point, it's just unlikely. <--misuse of theory fighting right there but that's probably how the situation will play out.

Now they have the chance of guessing right, but now you have the chance of big damage. Whose favor the change is in depends mostly on how damaging their throw punish is in the matchup.
 
It's a nerf plain and simple. If you guys don't think taking away forced grab attempts is a nerf you need to evaluate just how powerful a no risk option like this is. Now if you guess incorrectly and they duck a throw you get hit. Before you made them guess with absolutely no downside on your end. You could still go for a mid mixup since if you mistime the throw attempt they could actually still duck it, so it wasn't a bad idea to hold down during the multiple setup situations.

It is an acceptable nerf and I understand why they did it. She still has other ways to force a throw attempt with meter so it's not like it is completely gone, but don't try to dress this up as some kind of benefit. No matter how you break it down the risk/reward is worse.
 
Signia said:
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That's a nice evaluation, but the mixup situation hasn't changed from 1.02 to 1.03, because each of those options still exist in both versions. The only difference as far as mixups go is that now in 1.03 you can visually confirm which way they are blocking during the orb blockstun, which slightly helps you to decide which attack to use next. Though as you suggested the opponent can adapt, which could turn it back into a raw mixup situation, which means all that changed about SET 6B+K in 1.03 is that you lost the ability to force an unavoidable throw.

Ceirnian said:
It's a nerf plain and simple. -snip-
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Yeah, I feel that it's a nerf to SET 6B+K and a buff to her CE. Though this may have been a necessary change, perhaps unavoidable throws near the edge of the ring was a bit ridiculous, since you'd always chose the option to not get RO'd which meant you'd always get 40-56 damage depending on positioning (and more if they didn't block the orb for some reason).

So how does she still have it with meter? Some other move of hers forces a stand?
 
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