Balance Patch Discussion

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Stop trolling around dude, there is already too much shit to clean up, dont put more or do it in PM.
 
Azazel said:
Raph does not need buffs, he needs a total redesign, you can't make him top or mid tier with a couple of buffs, all his gameplay is wrong.
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I think he can be made pretty good with a few frame and damage adjustments, and some changed properties on some moves. Also if you dont think he can be made top tier with buffs alone it's as simple as giving him some absurdly powerful changes.

Asking for a complete overhaul is a bit much though and likely isnt possible with just a patch. But giving him a nice helping of buffs would certainly go further in making him better than he is now.
 
I feel that Ezio needs a lot of stuff. He doesn't have a traditional launcher, and it's slow at 21 frames He gets bad damage at NC, his CH damage is good but has little ways of actually catching people in CH.

Or give those same moves better CH properties, since he is a CH character by design.

Also a good suggestion would be to make some of his super unsafe stuff slightly safer and other suggested changes, such as:

- 1K: His ONLY Launcher that's ASS. Decrease its execution frames at i18 from i21. OR give it a special CH property, such as a High launch via Attack Throw (like NM's GS B height)
- 44B: make it a -8 on block instead of -12
- 11A: make it a -16 from -18, while making the move faster at i24 (from i31 for 24 damage)
- 1A: give it more CH damage, it's -18 on block make it -16
- 11B: Give it better tracking, but only on the opposite side it's performed on (11B: slight tracking to his left, 77B: right tracking)
- 6AB: Make the second hit a Mid for mixups
- 22AA: more safe on block, make it -14 (instead of -18 or 20, not 100% sure)
- 6K2: make it not so negative ON HIT: -10 from -18, make it +16 on CH, faster recovery when hitting a grounded opponent, still super negative on block
- Crossbow: Option 1: Keep it completely as is BUT make the 6B+K (forward crossbow shot) a MID or
Option 2: make it safe on block, but still unsafe on hit (change from -30 to -12)
- B+K: gunshot: make it faster to about i35-i40 from i60 or give it Tracking to both sides, while still being HIGH
 
I forgot to mention Ezio's 66BB string! PS should make it completely safe on block (-7) on the second hit , while still making it step-able and making it Launcher punishable on Just Guard

IMO, these are Ezio's main problems that make it stupid hard for him to have a decent time against the fast characters of the cast + the high tier
 
Force-Destruct said:
I feel that Ezio needs a lot of stuff. He doesn't have a traditional launcher, and it's slow at 21 frames He gets bad damage at NC, his CH damage is good but has little ways of actually catching people in CH.

Or give those same moves better CH properties, since he is a CH character by design.

Also a good suggestion would be to make some of his super unsafe stuff slightly safer and other suggested changes, such as:

- 1K: His ONLY Launcher that's ASS. Decrease its execution frames at i18 from i21. OR give it a special CH property, such as a High launch via Attack Throw (like NM's GS B height)
- 44B: make it a -8 on block instead of -12
- 11A: make it a -16 from -18, while making the move faster at i24 (from i31 for 24 damage)
- 1A: give it more CH damage, it's -18 on block make it -16
- 11B: Give it better tracking, but only on the opposite side it's performed on (11B: slight tracking to his left, 77B: right tracking)
- 6AB: Make the second hit a Mid for mixups
- 22AA: more safe on block, make it -14 (instead of -18 or 20, not 100% sure)
- 6K2: make it not so negative ON HIT: -10 from -18, make it +16 on CH, faster recovery when hitting a grounded opponent, still super negative on block
- Crossbow: Option 1: Keep it completely as is BUT make the 6B+K (forward crossbow shot) a MID or
Option 2: make it safe on block, but still unsafe on hit (change from -30 to -12)
- B+K: gunshot: make it faster to about i35-i40 from i60 or give it Tracking to both sides, while still being HIGH
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You want all these changes? Cause he just got a whole lot safer as a result. He's no longer launch punishable on all sorts of good moves. Moves that lead into pretty good damage and Oki already. I know it was your intention to make him a little safer but i feel this is a bit much.
 
I did say some. Which those are my suggested options, but they all cannot be accepted of course, because he then becomes top tier with ALL the changes.

I did also mention him being unsafe on Just Guard, not to mention make is moves still unsafe as hell on block (Insurance Stomp: 6K2, and the Crossbow)

As for his oki, he really only has: do a mid, throw, or hit them if they roll with the stomp (super unsafe) or hit them with 44B (unsafe on whiff, -14 on block)

Patroklos has insanely good Oki (1K anyone?) and is safe as hell, why can't Ezio be SLIGHTLY safer?
 
I don't think Ezio's 1K needs a buff. It's a launcher that's completely safe on block and leads to 70 damage on hit for one BE.

I think if 3B > 6K2 comboed on NH that'd be badass and would help his meterless damage some.

66BB doesn't need a change on its safety. On block, it's a mixup between whether the opponent punishes the first hit or expects the second hit and punishes that. No character can step and punish the first hit on its own.

As for a + on hit low kick, 11K is +4. 6K2 is already an AMAZING move for trolling groundrollers and yellow-health opponents.
 
3B > 6K2 combos, but is inconsistent. In Ramon's match vs Jaxel on one of the events (I think Salty Battles) it combo'd on Xiba, so I tested it but sometimes it combos and sometimes it doesn't. I guess it a may be like a Just Frame link or something, like SC4 Apprentice's 2B+K:B combo series

Also, Ezio can interrupt (sometimes) or easily punish his own 66BB (either hit) with a 6B or 6B BE, or his CE, or JG and get 1K combo, or if you're real fancy, step and do your own 66BB (doing it as 33_99 BB in this case)
 
taffertier said:
I think he can be made pretty good with a few frame and damage adjustments, and some changed properties on some moves. Also if you dont think he can be made top tier with buffs alone it's as simple as giving him some absurdly powerful changes.

Asking for a complete overhaul is a bit much though and likely isnt possible with just a patch. But giving him a nice helping of buffs would certainly go further in making him better than he is now.
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Exactly, you can't fix Raph with just a patch, that's the point. Look at Amy for a sec, she was OP in IV because of some her tools where totally stupid (I'm looking at you 3B) and now that Amy is gone why can't the put some of those tools into Raphs gameplay, I mean we have had to deal with a low tier Raph for too long and truth is that I expected a very solid mid Raph this time, but instead we have the weakest Raph to date. So long story short redesigning the character combining him with Amy will give us a tourney character.
 
Azazel said:
Exactly, you can't fix Raph with just a patch, that's the point. Look at Amy for a sec, she was OP in IV because of some her tools where totally stupid (I'm looking at you 3B) and now that Amy is gone why can't the put some of those tools into Raphs gameplay, I mean we have had to deal with a low tier Raph for too long and truth is that I expected a very solid mid Raph this time, but instead we have the weakest Raph to date. So long story short redesigning the character combining him with Amy will give us a tourney character.
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That's the thing, i dont think it's realistically possible to just tack on animations to a character in a patch. It would likely be something that would have to be released on a new disc, similar to why we will most likely not receive DLC characters. And until such a time, i think Raphael can be given the tools he needs via simple damage and frame adjustments. You cant fix him on a play style level, but you can alter what he currently has to get a good character. I'm all for incorporating some of Amy's old moves into Raphael's repertoire. Some of them were his to begin with. I just dont think it's possible at the moment, but there is no harm in adjusting what we have now to get something passable.
 
taffertier said:
That's the thing, i dont think it's realistically possible to just tack on animations to a character in a patch. It would likely be something that have to be released on a new disc, similar to why we will most likely not receive DLC characters. And until such a time, i think Raphael can be given the tools he needs via simple damage and frame adjustments. You cant fix him on a play style level, but you can alter what he currently has to get a good character. I'm all for incorporating some of Amy's old moves into Raphael's repertoire. Some of them were his to begin with. I just dont think it's possible at the moment, but there is no harm in adjusting what we have now to get something passable.
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totally agree with this. If we ever get a SCV AE I would expect to see a new Raph, PS knows that the character is the weakest on the game so is not so impossible that they give us a new Raph in an upcoming title, kinda like SCIII Li Long and SCIII AE Li Long, SCV needs to take that direction.
 
Slade said:
I disagree with Aeon needing buffs, only bug fixes. He currently has the strongest RO ability in the game, some of the best anti-step in the game, and he's no slouch when it comes to damage. SW stance is a joke, though.
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I completely agree with this. Thank you Slade for realizing this and not just go with the popular opinion and making your own conclusion instead of trying to protect your "precious" character.
 
Age_of_Truth said:
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What I am tired of, is people talking and talking and TALKING about how Tira is so broken this and is this and that and that, but I don't see anyone SHOWING IT.
My point with my previous post is, put up or shut up.
Once I'm proven wrong, I'll stfu and pay the person who PLACES top 5 in a Major Tournament (meaning, the best of the best are ALL there and people who know what they're doing, not just locals) $20.

PS: Only reason why I feel this way is because people are ENCOURAGING for her to get more nerfs, seriously...wtf.
 
hey, I have an idea...for every character that wins a tournament (because you know, that's how good a character is measured...right.....?), they get nerfed. Mitsu wins the next tourney? NERF THAT FOOL! HE'S OP! Voldo wins next? Nerf the HELL outta his ass!...while you're at it, nerf his damn outfits! He dresses like a blind man!!....oh wait....

See, this way, it'll keep the rotation going so no single character will have the limelight for too long. You just have to wait your turn. Any takers? No?
 
...I hate to say it, but I have to agree with my fellow scrubs. Beyond Belial citing GS 3A and GS 66B, so far all the tourney players saying Tira needs nerfs have indeed had their argument consisting of "I'm a tourney player, I said so!" I don't mean any disrespect, but the fact is that that is just simply not proper discussion. "I said so" is no more meaningful from someone that has never lost a single round ever than it is someone that hasn't even played the game. A statement that is self-evident is to be assumed to be false, the source is irrelevant.
 
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