Balance Patch Discussion

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Solo said:
Difficulty in execution isn't a factor when determining tiers, seems you don't understand that. Oh and fight a good Cervantes player, you'll learn quite a bit.
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if you face a good cervantes player you'll see he is much about just frames, which are pretty unsafe and since his move list is not truly big, he has not a lot of options against a player who knows his moves
he's not more than mid tier or maybe mid to high
 
lxhizy said:
aPat is very hard to use, so his damage is understable, yoshimitsu as well
Cervantes isn't top tier, so i don't have any trouble against him
Z.W.E.I., i don't really know much about this character but I win almost every match I use him
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Z.W.E.I. is VERY hard to use. Maybe harder aPat. What does he get? Bottom tier, mediocre damage, bad speed, bad range, and cooldown on Z.W.E.I.
Cervy is top tier. You haven't fought a good Cervy lol.
 
lxhizy said:
if you face a good cervantes player you'll see he is much about just frames, which are pretty unsafe and since his move list is not truly big, he has not a lot of options against a player who knows his moves
he's not more than mid tier or maybe mid to high
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Nah brah, Cervantes has a ridiculous number of good tools at his disposal for pretty much every situation imaginable. Even when you're familiar with him, you still can't account for what the other guy is going to do. Is he going to do iGDR up close? How about 22K? 1a:B? iFC A+BB? 4 A+B? He's very, very much top tier. You just haven't seen any good Cervantes players yet.
 
Wandrian said:
Nah brah, Cervantes has a ridiculous number of good tools at his disposal for pretty much every situation imaginable. Even when you're familiar with him, you still can't account for what the other guy is going to do. Is he going to do iGDR up close? How about 22K? 1a:B? iFC A+BB? 4 A+B? He's very, very much top tier. You just haven't seen any good Cervantes players yet.
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I hope he does iGDR up close. I want my free laucher that can be GI'd by a BT Cervantes /sarcasm. >:D
 
Paranormal_Oreo said:
Z.W.E.I. is VERY hard to use. Maybe harder aPat.
Cervy is top tier. You haven't fought a good Cervy lol.
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lol wat I can actually use Z.W.E.I., I learned him while using Kilik and he's nothing challenging, Viola, hilde and aPat are still the hardest characters on the game imo

I don't agree with the Cervantes = top tier stuff, i've fought a truly good cervantes and he's not really surprising
 
lxhizy said:
if you face a good cervantes player you'll see he is much about just frames, which are pretty unsafe and since his move list is not truly big, he has not a lot of options against a player who knows his moves
he's not more than mid tier or maybe mid to high
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Obviously you don't know the definition of good. Lol You only need JFs in combos are as whiff punishers. Lol you are stupid as FUCK!
 
lxhizy said:
lol wat I can actually use Z.W.E.I., I learned him while using Kilik and he's nothing challenging, Viola, hilde and aPat are still the hardest characters on the game imo

I don't agree with the Cervantes = top tier stuff, i've fought a truly good cervantes and he's not really surprising
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Lol I've learned every character in the game. So what. I'm still bad with a few of them. I've still learned them. Thats what matters. Try playing Z.W.E.I. against someone known thats good. Viola is SO EASY to play. Why do you think everybody has a pocket Viola? Is it JUST because she's top tier? No. Its because she's easy. If I wanted, I could have the best Viola on XBL within a month. Thats how easy she is. Damp and Z.W.E.I. are both very very hard characters. Definitely not easy.

Also, who is the "good" Cervy that you have fought? Who?
 
This difficulty of execution gets on my nerves.. imo it should not be a factor in anything period.

If some characters are more powerful because they have 'more difficult' inputs, then that is just really bad game design imo. If this is the case, it should be patched by ignoring any possible input difficulty.

Difficulty of execution <--> Preferred playstyle. I will just think of the matter like this.

Easy of use of a character is another matter and is really subjective. At what point in time can you say, I have now mastered this character. How long did it take to get there? If this time was really short, then maybe a character is easy to use. But have you really mastered the character? Most likely not.

As another example, in SC4 I played ungodly amount of hours of Mitsu (1000+ hours maybe involved :]), but I felt like I was learning new things even that late. So did I master the Mitsu? No... my estimated easy of use of the character? How low can that scale go, lol? In SC4 i would draw the line, that you can stance dance dynamically with Mitsu and be able to fight like this efficiently against all chars. (Have fun with it, I hope you don't have a job :] ) So this is imo also about.. when are you really playing with a character and when are you just fucking about with a character. (sidenote: sadly SC5 Mitsu seems to lack the same depth, but too early to say).

If anyone would say to me of SC4, "Hai guys, I just learned Mitsu, Cervantes, now I'm working on Taki", I would have a pretty good idea just how well these characters have been "learned".

But again, even this shouldn't be a factor in absolutely anything. Probably better to think - Easy of use <--> Preferred playstyle.
 
Paranormal_Oreo said:
Lol I've learned every character in the game. So what. I'm still bad with a few of them. I've still learned them. Thats what matters. Try playing Z.W.E.I. against someone known thats good. Viola is SO EASY to play. Why do you think everybody has a pocket Viola? Is it JUST because she's top tier? No. Its because she's easy. If I wanted, I could have the best Viola on XBL within a month. Thats how easy she is. Damp and Z.W.E.I. are both very very hard characters. Definitely not easy.

Also, who is the "good" Cervy that you have fought? Who?
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Viola isn't that easy to play. Her learning curve isn't as bad as the game claims it is, but she's still not 'easy'.
 
We have a new chat here. lol

Anyway, when this will end? I guess everyone already put their opinion in "balance patch community vote" thread.
 
BT_Johnny said:
We have a new chat here. lol

Anyway, when this will end? I guess everyone already put their opinion in "balance patch community vote" thread.
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Not really. The choices made with creating the thread are controversial to say the least. Regardless of any opinions on the intent and effort behind it, it still is a poll that is biased.
 
Reply to Paranormal_Oreo
Paranormal_Oreo said:
Raph doesn't need a damage buff. He's a fencer not a powerhouse.
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This little statement is partially true. Raphael should be in the bottom tier of overall damage, that I agree. The magnitude of his weakness should not be as severe as it currently is though. Since you have experience with a lot of other characters, just run down any combo list and compare it to Raphs in terms of "ability to do guaranteed damage).

All of his staple launchers from neutral are 38 to 44 damage (3B combo, 22B combo, 6A+B combo, 33KB combo), he has whiff punish for ~60 (66(B) and 4(B)) and then he has a stance combo for 80ish (SEB). What makes things even better for the opponent is that some of the combos are buggy and pushback drops the combo.

To get this thread back on track from the petty and ill informed bickering:

Gut feeling wise (don't ask me for the actual math), as an averagefor the rest of the cast, 60 combo damage is about average and anything over 80 is pretty solid or average if including meter. 100+ combos is for the situational stuff for the heavy hitters, and walls can bump that even higher. When you look at raph's 40 damage combos and 60 damage whiff punishes it seems pretty ludicrous that the average combo is about 50% stronger than what he has to offer. I guess the point i'm trying to illuminate is that the severity of Raph's underwhelming damage is too high and should be reduced. I hope I did not exaggerate to further my point, so anyone that can call me out on it, feel free.

I think narrowing the gap (but maintaining it) would not be unreasonable. ~50 average combo damage for Raph would make people think he is over-the-top ? Lets not forget that his biggest most exploitable weakness is not his poor damage, but his signature weakness: steppability.

So lets review:
Raph's strengths (please let me know if there is anything a non-Raph user thinks that I have left out).
  • X-axis range + speed ratio is really good.
  • prep stance entries beat a lot of moves without built in evasion (which unsurprisingly a lot of characters have built in evasion in their attacks like TC in their launchers)
  • good backdash
  • good counter against characters that rely on pushback for safety.
  • alright pushback on his signature moves
Raph's lacking + weakness areas (let me know if I am exaggerating
  • Combo damage potential is terrible
  • basic poke damage is lacking
  • damage from hard-to-react to lows is poor
  • Due to poor damage + buggy combos, potential to take advantage of guard burst and GI is limited
  • Tracking from character re-alignment non-existent
  • Tracking due to width of hurtbox is so narrow that his lows can miss standing opponents.
  • Tracking due to weapon arc rarely covers raph's side.
  • noticeable number of pokes and combos have buggy pushback that causes drops.
  • poor forward dash
  • poor grab range
  • auto-GI and auto evades are really poor (on successful activation the damage and advantage is alright, but the active frames are unusably late resulting in anticipation instead of reaction).
  • Terrible wake-up and oki pressure
  • Terrible ring-out potential
  • Nature of prep entry makes hit confirming impossible
  • Ease of being whiff punished (strings do not track so no threat of accidental counter hit, plus whiff-recovery on his attacks before he can guard are severely lengthy to the point of being nightmare-like
  • The undebately worst horizontals (intended design) should be compensated by having incredibly efficient verticals (which he doesn't).
  • bottom 3 combo damage (intended design) should be compensated by some combination of dealing respectable damage through good pokes, unseeable lows or strong reverse-mixup situations (which again Raph is lacking here).
  • Add in average grabs, average guard burst pressure, terrible ringout potential and terrible oki/wakeup means
While a lot of people are saying that Raph is a current mess and no small list of changes can fix him, I can see Belial's point of targetting only a few key core areas to facilitate more focused discussion.

Just a side note about asking for safety nerfs for some of the overly powerful moves: key frames for punish are i12, i16 and i20. That means dealing with anything that is -12 to -15 is the SAME for Raph, and requested nerfs on other character's "overpowered" stuff doesn't really do anything. Don't know how it'll affect other low tier characters though.
 
TiZ said:
Um, no way. Leixia's strongest combo is 170: 44[A], AA BE, 3B W!, 4A+B W!, 6BA (AT), CE. Requires 1.5 CEs, a wall, and to connect with 44[A].
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194 damage: vs BT'ed opponent, 44[A]. AA BE. 3B(w!). 1A. A+B(w!). 8B+K. BT B+K. iWR B BE. BT B+K. CE.
187 damage: CH 1A. 4K(w!). 44[A]. AA BE. 3B(w!). 8B+K. BT B+K. iWR B BE. BT B+K. CE.
 
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