Tekken 6 PS3 Discussion

Ahrezmendi said:
2 - The reason games might be difficult to port from PS3 to 360 is most likely not due to hardware differences but to software differences (I can't confirm that they are, as I have yet to hear of ANY game studio that develops for PS3 first, then ports to 360. Tekken 6 may be the first example of such a game. And no, Virtua Fighter 5 does not count, it used the Sega Lindbergh system).
The PS3 is extremely difficult to program for. This is why most companies develop for 360 first, because they can get the core game done faster. Then they can just port the system specific items. Overall a huge cost saving maneuver.
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You realize that software differences exist because the hardware is different? No matter what the code looks like on the software level, it will eventually have to be translated into machine code that the computer can execute, and depending on the architecture of the hardware, what can be done on one computer has to be done completely differently on another.

The developers kits directly reflect this. When you program, if it is something small scale like a homework problem, you can for the most part forget about what machine you are writing for. But whenever you have a large scale program, the variations of order of growth between one machine compared to the other pose a significant problem. You can't just write one algorithm for one computer and expect it to work equally with the other computer, even if the programming languages are exactly the same, which they probably aren't anyways.
 
Ahrezmendi said:
How do you know the netcode is bad in SC4? Did you write it?
Too many things factor into network latency to blame the network code of the game, and simply by virtue of it being online it will never, ever be the same as local play. Don't make blanket statements as if they were fact unless you can back them up.

On an aside, it's probably going to be more akin to T5:DR on PSN, which I've *heard* is not bad (but have not played it, so I don't know).
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hence the term "if"
 
E.C said:
VF5 gets nothing but high marks about its online play. STHD plays great
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No argument here (having played both VF5 and SFHD, both are far superior to SC4 in online).

Angelic: Sorry, misread your post.

iKotomi: That's precisely why SDKs exist, is to abstract the hardware differences away from the software. Yes, things have to be optimized for each platform, but to minimize the amount of work developers try to make systems as generic as possible. If an SDK is well designed, it will make this easy. If it's not well designed, it will make this very difficult. I haven't seen either the 360 or PS3 SDK, so I can't say how they look. But having spoken to people working for various companies (2K, Sony), they all say that the PS3 is extremely difficult to program for.

Madnis: Unreal 3 was developed for PC/360 first (Gears of War). Orange Box is a port of a PC title, and the experience Valve had in making it is why there is no PS3 version of Left 4 Dead. I don't know about Mirror's Edge, but DICE is a long-time PC developer, so my money would be on their primary development being PC/360. The same applies to Fallout 3 (Bethesda having only made PC/Xbox versions of their previous 2 games, and only PC before that).
You're also not considering all the downsides of these various technologies. Re: Rage - Sure, Blu-Ray has more storage capacity for those high-res textures ID loves so much, but it's also got slower read speed than DVD does, so it's not that simple.

I very much agree that this isn't an excuse on their part. If they can't do it properly, they shouldn't do it at all, and it looks to me like some companies are finally getting that (see - no Left 4 Dead on PS3).

I don't even remember what my original point was, so I'll leave it there. :)

EDIT: Spluh? I guess my original point was just to not assume things, but not made in a very good way. Forget that comment, doesn't apply.
 
How hard the SDK is to use doesn't change the fact that the netcode is bad. It just means its harder to write good netcode. However, paid professionals should be able to do a better job than a bunch of fanboys hacking away in their free time.
 
My point about the SDKs is in reference to the earlier talk about performance differences between systems and porting issues (regarding T6 being, as far as we know, a PS3 to 360 port), not about the netcode.

I agree that we should expect better from paid professionals. And the sad thing is that Namco isn't the worst offender (tried Smash Bros. Brawl online lately?) I think that Capcom and Sega have thrown down the proverbial gauntlet, upstaging Namco by having not only better online play, but in their first attempts at it (where as SC4 is the 2nd I can count from Namco). I hope T6 has VF5 or SF2HDR level online performance, but it probably won't stop me from buying it (it just might mean I buy it after a price drop rather than at launch).
 
How difficult an SDK is to use is a hardware issue. The purpose of an SDK is to allow you to develop for that particular
platform. A good SDK is not necessarily one that is easy to program for. The simpler a language is, the less efficient it is. The job of the engineers isn't to get code that works, its to get code that works well, and you simply need to have more control. The more control you have, the more difficult it is to program, but the easier it is to make efficient code.

Pretty much, in order to program well, you need to understand the hardware, and how to use the SDK efficiently for the hardware. The fact of the matter is, people just don't have the experience using the hardware in the ps3, while the 360 is easier to work with for obvious reason. Same reason why the saturn had such crappy ports, due to the weird processor it had. You just have to program in a different way. That's why software differences are because of hardware differences.
 
Agreed that it comes down to learning the platform and the SDK for that platform, but I disagree that a good SDK is not necessarily one that is easy to program for. I've used Java3D, OpenGL, and DirectX for my personal programming, and while all three achieve the same end result, they do it in drastically different ways, some of which are a lot easier to understand and pick up.

As the software engineer, it's not my responsibiliity to have to worry about how the hardware does what I'm telling it to do. If that were the case, I should just be working in assembly, where I have the most control possible. The reason the SDK exists is to make my life easier, and the better it does that, the better an SDK it is.

Certainly people will get better with the PS3, same as they did with PS2 and others as you mentioned. There's always a rampup time with new systems. I'm saying that a defining factor of the quality of the SDK is how long that rampup time is.

Umm, that's all totally off topic. On topic, really looking forward to playing with Zafina and Lili. My one regret in not owning a PS3 is that I missed Tekken 5: DR (it's just not the same on PSP).
 
iKotomi said:
We know netcode is bad in SC4 because doujin pc fighters had better netcode than that game.
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wow i lol at this post


but the problem with online for me is i use prediction heavy characters like raph and steve fox so online is not the best thing for me. who do you guys main in tekken?
 
Ahrezmendi said:
Madnis: Unreal 3 was developed for PC/360 first (Gears of War).
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You sure about that? unreal tournament 3 hit the ps3 long before the 360 version (about a full 8 months before ), kinda ass backward to work on the pc/360 version only to delay the 360 version ...

Also valve had nothing to do with the ps3 port, the blame for such a shitty port goes to EA
 
I main Hwoarang, Jin, Steve. I haven't played in so long though, probably horrible with everyone now.

aaronisbla: UT3 was developed for PC first (PC version predates PS3 version by 2 months). However what I was pointing out there was that Gears of War predates all other Unreal 3 Engine games by a long shot, which I take as proof positive that Epic develops for 360 first.
Good point on Orange Box, I forgot that the PS3 port was outsourced.
 
ah, did you mean unreal 3 as in its engine? yeah true.

Not sure why valve doesn't develop for ps3, if there is any type of bias, we all know Gabe is a big fan of ps3, not sure if that would be a major factor in them outsourcing it. Some would say if it wasn't for EA, ps3 would never have gotten orange box, perhaps that would have been best haha.

Its starting to look like ports aren't nearly as bad as they use to be though. i think the last major game with console port issues might have been fallout 3.

Don't quote me on this but i do believe mirror's edge lead console was ps3. I don't care which console is lead as long as one isn't a shitty rush job, no matter what system.

I'd hate for tekken 6 br to be awesome on one system and watered down on the other.
 
from what i hear, Mirrors edge actually looks better on the ps3 than the 360 version albeit slightly.

as for fallout 3, it was just a huge mistake to bring it out the way they did. especially since bethesda did a beautiful job with Oblivion, people had high expectations and only to see them drop so hard... and the funny thing is, it's still recommended as must buy for the ps3. ha..

also people can't negate money and business transactions either when it comes to making games. that's a basic fundamental truth that should be common knowledge. if microsoft is willing to pay this much for exclusive rights, add to the fact that it's rather easier to make and relatively cost effective, it just makes sense. add to that the user base and there we go.

and really, truth be told, it's not up to the developers if the games go multiplat or not... it's up to the check writers ie big wigs of that company. they come down from upstairs and say make it happen.. developers can't look back and say no. regardless of their feelings.

an example of that is tekken 5 dr for the ps3. had the developers/programmers and what not had their way, it would have been psp only. big wigs came down stairs, said make it happen. and look what we got. Dr on ps3.

that's why i won't be surprised if FFvs13 goes multiplat. the developers/artists/programmers want to leave it as a ps3 exclusive, i read that in an interview somewhere. let the president of square come down and say make it happen. it's now multiplat.

anywho.. weighed in my couple of cents... and i shall leave now and let you continue with your tech talk.

slang.
 
Bethesda definitely should have let PS3 Fallout 3 bake a bit longer, although all of their games come out with pretty horrendous bugs in them (thankfully the good far outweighs the bad).

aaronisbla: Newell is just a hardcore PC person is what it really comes down to. In the past he's both said that he loves the PS3, and that he hates it. I think the only reason that 360 even has Valve games is because it's so similar to PC, and makes for a painless port.

Madnis: Is PS3 DR that bad? I've only ever played the PSP one, but really wanted to try the online in PS3.
 
Ahrezmendi: not at all. Tekken 5 DR is great fun. sorry if i was giving the implication that DR was crap. I'll say that the online is crap but the game is still Tekken DR, of the "5" series, it's rather solid. I personally don't really like online with my fighting games. I've done it but if i can i try to avoid it.

as for whether or not you should get it... with tekken 6 BR coming out this year i think it's just better to hold off on it until then. but if you absolutely need to have your tekken fix and the psp just isn't quite curing that itch. go for it.
 
At this point I'll just wait for BR, but I had hoped that DR online would be passable. I had really high hopes for online fighters after I played VF5 online, which I've never had a bad match in, but SC4 (and now hearing that DR online is not good) does not give me rise to think that Namco can do good online.

Oh well, I'll place my hopes on SF4 then, and leave Tekken to offline play. :)
 
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