Big one, and ya may just get me on a couple of points here, IIRC from reading it earlier.
This is not a good post of mine youve quoted either. xD
I think JG is the best addition to the game and fits perfectly within SC5. I've only read one of NDK's post and, as such, am going to argue against the points made by one of the people he thinks had very good points
I'm going to take this as a summary of your points.
1. It's bad because it breaks natural combos.
First, I think you mean "strings" as JGing...nothing hits a natural combo (a natural combo is a string of attacks wherein the following attacks are guaranteed after the first one). Secondly, it doesn't 'break' strings any more than ducking, stepping, GIing, or jumping. What I'm guessing you're talking about is jailed strings, which is where I can only say that SC is not and has never been a string based fighter. Most of the strings in SC are already bad in one or multiple ways if you do them on block. The only exception is the standard AA and BB, where most of them are barely punishable. What I'm saying is that I doubt that are many, if any, strings in the game outside of your standard AA and BB that could have not otherwise been countered in some way. In all actuality, JG also gives some characters who otherwise cannot deal with strings like NM's 22AA without meter to GI, the ability to not be helpless.
No, by natural combos, i meant how Ukemi JG breaks lots of ground hits, that wouldn't even be tech traps. Obvious example Aeon's CE, but any combo where they have a split second to tech, but even if the hits still hit as though they were on the ground, still JGable... it doesn't seem intentional and I personally don't like the idea.
Thinking about it, it would even break Viola's 4A+B 2A+B BE... (I don't think lots of examples are too necessary here, and its early >.>)
Also,
3. Can be done at any time.
I'm going to assume this is hyperbole.
I was probably referring to Ukemi JG and GI JG. At the time, I was still going by the fact that Legendary Souls Seigfried JGed my Ezio's 1K 6B BE crossbow hits as well, but as I can't prove that, I'm skipping over it.
2. It makes just about every attack in the game punishable.
This is true but character dependent. But the fact that there varying attack speeds, high/mids and lows, and throws make it so that this a barely a factor.
Not true. Where this becomes a problem is when you attempt a JG every time you block, without the intention of it working necessarily. If they catch you they get guaranteed damage, and there is no risk as if it fails because all they lose is the ability to JG for a short time, and they were intending to JG in the first place. They can still use every other method of defense without any issue.
And by this, I mean its not even a conscious thought. Just double-tap G every time you block, sometimes, you get something...
And 29 frames, is a short time. You can use G[G] haphazard like that and still JG most attacks that're going to be a problem on block, yet alone step, duck, etc. without any problems.
4. Carries no risk.
This is absolutely untrue as far as I'm concerned and I think you should elaborate on this because there are so many different ways that statement could be applied to this argument and just as many ways that it can be wrong.
Explained above, and if you need more, my other posts may have covered it in a little more detail.
But yeah, there's no reason not to use it every time you block normally, because it doesn't stop you from doing anything, and it's not a thought process so there's no mind games to it... and, well, the next section will cover the rest.
5. It makes unblockables and slow attacks useless.
This is completely untrue. Show me a slow attack that wasn't useless before JG. Since we seem to be talking about at least somewhat competent play here, the only unblockable I can say lost effectiveness with JG is the one where Ivy walks backwards and does the long-ranged mid. What I'm saying, basically, is that these unblockables were never useful to begin with. Not only that, if your opponent is JGing every unblockable, in many cases, they open themselves up to a mid/low/throw mixup because the good majority of unblockables can be canceled (this is why many unblockables are still stepped and/or interrupted).
As for the slow attacks, what attacks, that aren't completely telegraphed, have been shut down by JGing (and would have otherwise been shut down by GIing or stepping or ducking or jumping?)? Things like Mitsu's 66A+B and 236B hold are still being used.
A couple of unblockables were useful... Mid Horizontal ones such as Tira's and the one of Ivy's you mentioned, as well as ones that are awkward to avoid, such as when you tech into a 2A+B from Natsu. I wouldnt say this is a high level concern, but Tira's 6A+B was usable.
I learnt to use Tira's from a guy on my friends list in the early days of SCV, and he would constantly cancel it. I found that at the start, it helps stop the opponent from seeing the start-up of the following attack, because they're thinking about the possibility of countering this unblockable. Eventually they learn to ignore it, which means they ignore a portion of the unblockables start-up, making it more difficult to counter, and use in the right circumstances along with that, they don't have any time to avoid it or interrupt it, because they're too busy recovering from Ukemi, or whatever else, and assessing the possibility of a Low/Mid mix-up.
That's not gonna work on everyone, yes, but at least it was difficult to avoid. I've found the same guy since... I even started stepping in the wrong direction one time... you can just JG it without even thinking about it.
What's a bigger problem is attacks like 44[A].
Yes, you could GI them before, however, GI has risks.
You can return a GI, you can't return a JG.
If a GI fails you cant act at all; no blocking, stepping, jumping, crouching, GIing, interrupting, anything, if a JG fails, you can still perform any action other than JG.
The problem is they're predictable, and that's addressed in the next point, thinking about it.
6. Astaroth.
You're simplifying the argument too much. I will discuss both of those attacks.
44A:
First of all, should this attack be able to be applied the way you're saying it should? It is still very good post GI, the hold. Not only that, but Astaroth has three different speeds for this attack. Are you mad that an attack like Astaroth 44A hold is not able to be abused in more situations (in this case, neutral)? In the case of this hold, this risk to it becomes as big as the potential reward only, thus making it less 'spammable' and able to only be applied in certain situations effectively, like most attacks in the game.
BB6:
First of all, let us look at the stem of this string in not one string in particular. After Ast's B, he has two different strings, B and B6. Let's look at what happens if your opponent JGs BB6 for BB6 in both scenarios.
BB6: Your opponent JG's and you're at -13, AA punished in most cases.
BB: Your opponent's JG MISSES. If they're vigilant and catch that they missed the JG, they eat some guard damage and you're at -10 but, with how much pushback Ast's BB has, you're effectively put back to neutral in most cases, where you can play the spacing game, continue to attack, etc.
Now, let's look FURTHER into this. Let's say I pick on the fact that my is JGing my BB6 and AAing or mixing me up everytime. I'm tired of that ish! So, you know what, I'm going to give him a taste of his own medicine! So, the next time, I do B and then...wait for it...I don't finish the string! My opponent's at a lost! He lost his frames so it's time to mix him up! I'mma get some big damage! I go for a throw, but, shit! This guy's fast and 2A's me! I'm back to blocking again.
Still, I gained some good knowledge. I notice my opponent is pretty predictable with his responses. So, I've got the advantage this time. I single B...my predictable friend does an option select JG into 2A and then mashes out some other ish because he thinks he's got the situation under control....but he forgot about my fuckin' bullrush BE! I take my halflife wall combo real quick real fast.
Next time, my predictable friend is scared after I single B and trying to respect it more but he pulls a bitch move and tries to step and throw out a tech crouching attack. It don't matter though, because I listened to that LP guy and I'm ahead of the game. I stop my B, then I 4B, beating him out because he lost frames just like he would due to JGing. Now I'm at plus frames so you know I get my throw action going! By then, my predictable friend is out of chances...as I guessed right twice with Asta and won the round. Next round, who knows where these things will take us?
This is a very important concept we (and at least I call) leading. Look at some high level SC some time. You'll notice highlevel players eating lower level players up by leading them while at the same time making it hard for them to get a read on them by varying their responses. I know, for a fact, in Hawkeye and my own match where I used Pat and he Natsu, I picked up on the fact that, after every 44A I did, he would AA me to stop me from continuing my attack. So, what did I do? I waiting for a spot where I needed to make up some damage, 44A...then...DRIFT STRIKE! or Pat's B+K for the win.
This is what SC is all about and JG just adds another layer to a beautiful mindgame in most cases.
I don't think 44[A] should be able to be abused. I do however think it should have some use.
You can JG it even after a failed GI by the way, and its so predictable that you couldn't not JG it.
Yes, it has three speeds.
What were you going to do about a Mid Horizontal anyway? If you assume Astaroth will always use the full charge, and always attempt to JG that, what do you lose for doing so?
The fact that you're going to JG in a few frames does not prevent you from doing anything, and what were you going to do exactly? It's Mid Horizontal. Let me guess... JG it?
In a situation in which 44[A] can't be avoided, neither can any other charge. What are your other options? I suppose you could use an attack that jumps very high into the air to avoid the other charge levels. But that would also work on the full charge as well, if you had that foresight to predict it.
Let's assume you're in a situation where you didn't see the 44A_[A] coming, so you haven't jumped over it or STC underneath it, where your only option is block. (which obviously does happen as not every character has those options, and youre not going to predict it every time)
No charge: Block - Safe, some guard damage, some pushback.
Slight charge: Block - Safe, some guard damage, some pushback
Full charge: JG - Unsafe, free damage.
It's not like you can release it right before the max charge time... As soon as you hear the spark, JG. The full charge is predictable.
You haven't lost anything by attempting that JG.
At least with GI, Astaroth had a chance to return it, and if they failed it would actually hit them and Astaroth would get his combo. Now, the risk of JG is so huge that the attack isn't worth using against anybody with any confidence use it it.
I'm running out of time, so I'll replay back later with responses to the remaining points.
But quickly... BB is so slow you can still step it if you were expecting B6B(or BB6, is it BB6? Everyone else is calling it that, so I assume it is) and B is not only punishable, the axe stopping is very visible and it also takes a long time to recover (and isn't a specific counter to JG. Somebody who was guarding normally would suffer the same confusion.) ...you again, haven't lost anything for attempting it.
Stepping BB6 on the other hand has consequences. BB, would still fail, but you lose considering time stepping BB6 that would a simple B quite safe.
So again, JG is the best option... with no risk.
More later as I say... Gotta go!
(I'm not nearly as focussed in the morning >.>)
I looked at this again and I think I actually covered everything, just without my usual summary and well... the whole thing was a little flustered...
The info is still there and the points are still made however, so I'm not going to add to it unless someone finds it necessary.
