Discussion about Just Guard

[Jimbonator]

Remember...me...

 

[garjian]

The opinions here on it have been noted.

And stored in the circular filing cabinet? Right?

If you suddenly became the greatest player of SC, you would hopefully understand the intricacies of the game enough to know not to say stupid stuff like that, unless you were trolling.

Now if you want to argue that Partisan and Idle are against removing just guard because they're messing with us, go ahead, that's a more likely scenario than them just being flat out wrong about it.

There you go again.
Call it stupid, no reason why.
I did my research, I don't see any counter-arguments. But no, you're right... being able to punish absolutely anything for virtually no risk is totally the way SC should go.
I think, in SC:CE the first person to throw an attack slower than i30 or use a multi-hitting attack should fall on their sword and die instantly. I'm glad we're all in agreement.

Again, I ask. How is the bolded part a bad thing?

How is it breaking natural combos bad?
Well, let's see... from what i already know, without going into training and looking for more...
It reduces Aeon's successfully landed CE from 78 to 31.
It reduces Ezio's successfully landed 6B BE from 28 to 70.
And while these are hard now, it only takes somebody to learn how to do it consistently and these and attacks of a similar nature (that knock to the ground and follow up with further hits) are made weak.
Also, this is a clearly unintentional bug. Being able to JG on the ground and from teching is ridiculous, and if I fortunate enough to be recording that particular attempts at Legendary Souls with Ezio, you bet id have evidence to support that you can JG during the sliding animation.

How is the lack of risk bad?
Soulcalibur, and probably all fighting games, are about risk and reward. Stepping risks you getting counter-hit by horizontals. Guarding risks you being hit by quick lows and grabs. Crouching risks you being hit by mids. GIs restrict you from acting at all for a long period, and can be returned when successful. Jumping was even considered when you look at NM's 1aK.
The risks of JG are; errr... you cant use JG for 29 frames. But you can still perform absolutely any other method of defense. You can still block, step, duck, GI, jump, everything. If you attempted it every time you used a standing guard, without any expectation of it working, you would lose absolutely nothing, because the penalty puts the in the same situation you were already going to be in. You lose nothing.
And you gain--

How is being able to punish almost every attack in the game bad?
Again, risk and reward.
You use something fast and safe, you don't get much damage, and it has short range...
You use something slow and interruptable, you get a lot of damage or a frametrap for pressure, etc. ...the weakness being its easily interrupted/avoided.
JG ruins this.
There is no fast and safe, because youll get JGed by the risk-free G[G] instead of [G]. There is no slow and rewarding because its so predictable its easy to JG, and you get punished for it. And I mean EASY to JG. Tira's UB isn't a threat anymore... Astaroths 44[A] isn't a threat. They are made entirely pointless.
And everything that causes such circumstances as frametraps or anything beneficial on guard, besides probably Raphael's 3B, takes over 29 frames, so you can still double-tap G, and JG anything rewarding as well. Baring in mind that even if there were anything faster that had the same properties, it can still be stepped, GIed, ducked, even interrupted because G[G] doesn't prevent you from acting in any way. And even if you were forced to standard block it, you can still attempt to JG the attack they use after the bloody frametrap.
(that applies to this as well)

Maybe it's just me but save for the numerous JG situations that aren't happening during neutral game (Ukemi JG, GI JG, etc...) isn't it extremely easy to shut down constant JG attempts?I mean, if they are gonna attempt a JG after everything you can just throw them, use lows, delay your attacks or use moves slightly slower than things you would throw out at advantage.

Delaying your attacks just results in the same situation as if they had guarded normally, except you lose the speed of your attack.
Grabbing works just as well on standard guard as it does on somebody doing this, because ducking and breaking grabs aren't affected at all.
Same goes for lows, except they're normally even more visible, aside from generic 2K, which again, would work just as well on somebody guarding regularly.
And everything that would give you advantage on block, besides Raph's 3B (I'm not 100% sure about this, but there's not much else) is over i29.

It has no risk and breaks everything. It is OP, destroying what makes a good Soulcalibur game, a good fighting game, if it were used to its maximum potential.
If 2 theoretically perfect SCV players were to fight, why would either of them bother to attempt an attack when even the safe options are punishable, and the risky options are punishable... through the same method? Even if you baited it, you gain nothing.

 

[UnseenWombat]

There you go again.
Call it stupid, no reason why.

I was actually referring to all the ridiculous examples of crazy things you and Donutman would say if you woke up tomorrow and were the greatest SC player in the world.

 

[Mage]

I was actually referring to all the ridiculous examples of crazy things you and Donutman would say if you woke up tomorrow and were the greatest SC player in the world.

You should have saved that until the 20th, so that if they did wake up the next day as the best SC players in the world we would know the Mayans were correct.

 

[docvizzo]

I'll just copy my post for clarity:

Maybe we should make a seperate topic about this Just Guard discussion?

When Just Guard was first announced quite a few people were happy that it would prevent safe moves with Pushback beeing now less spammable. Ivy comes to mind, Sophie BB etc...

But within the SC5 Engine i feel it does not serve this purpose at all. Since step is so good and verticals have less tracking (except some moves) you have enough mobility to to simply step and punish.

Also when we look at Ivy and Sophie BB one problem was the constant safe backstep which made it so hard to get in against this spam. Also this is not an issue anymore due to the first patch in SC5. You simply cannot play infinitely turtle anymore since backstep is nerfed so hard.

Right now Just Guard destroys a lot of moves. It ended up beeing the opposite of what we thought, didnt it?
Plenty of moves are simply not usable at all just because of Just Guard. All canned strings which can not be hit confirmed are basically out if you dont use them to whiffpunish etc.

Instead of encouraging players to use more moves and not spam single moves it did the exact opposite.

So what does Just Guard actually add to the gameplay which Guard Impact couldnt do? I know its fun to JG unblockables etc, but it was much more fun to Perfect GI and Unblockable with the risk of getting one back. There was plenty of mindgame involved after the GI, now its simply not. SC is fun because you always have defensive options if you have a proper read. Step, TJ, TC etc. Against Just guard there is none. Only thing you can do is throw, delay etc in your offense...

I really think it needs to be fixed in order to make it a bit more risky. Maybe instead of not beeing able to JG again for whatever frames make throws unbreakable for 10 Frames or so. There are plenty of possibilties

 

[OneManjiArmy]

I thought I'd hate it at first. I don't mind it at all. Could give a little more reward for the risk but maybe that's just my slowness to react on a successful one. *JGs, stares in amazement, gets punished.*

"OOOHHHH I JGED LOL"

*gets smacked*

 

[garjian]

I was actually referring to all the ridiculous examples of crazy things you and Donutman would say if you woke up tomorrow and were the greatest SC player in the world.

What?

So, you're saying that it's stupid of us to say that just because somebody has the best tournament record not everything they say is correct?
Because that was the point.

The purpose of saying "If I were proven to be the best..." is to put myself into the ridiculous situation you hold as correct, and being able to control what happens.
Its the same as saying "If SCPartisan were to say..." but from a different angle.

Both of us made it clear that it is neither proven that we are, nor do we think that we are the best.
And if anything, that makes the situation worse, because if an uninformed, low-life noob like me can provide evidence that JG causes such problems, and you can't even provide a counter-argument, and instead choosing to turn your back on evidence, without so much as considering it, yet alone testing it, then that means that JG causes problems well below high-level play.

If I went onto an Astrophysics forum and started talking about my theories about black holes, based on my learnings from wikipedia & 4 years of undergrad physics, then Stephen Hawking logs on and says, "that's stupid," who should the people of the forum believe? Should I sit there and demand that they prove me wrong?

The difference here, is that while I don't have the tools to assess every possible aspect of astrophysics right in from of me, I do have everything needed to assess every possible aspect of Soulcalibur's mechanics. An Xbox, a PS3, at least 2 controllers for both, access to copies of SC for both platforms, a partner, training mode and versus mode.
Its not like I'm taking evidence from SCIV and applying to the JG mechanics of SCV. I'm assessing the frame data from this site, and testing JG in various situations myself. And these are my results so far.

You have not given a reason as to why JG doesn't cause everything I have mentioned, and instead you choose to mock me based on a hypothetical situation used to help explain how ludicrous your belief that nobody outside of the most successful players on the tournament scene can understand SC, and that nothing they have to say is even worth reading... and somehow, my inability to go to a tournament because I live in rural Yorkshire, and I'm not rich.

Again, if that's what these forums are, then why do they even exist?
Again.

So it does not matter what evidence I provide,
It does not matter what point I make and how irrefutable it is or isn't,
All that matters is whether or not I beat some other people on the East Coast of America?

And this is of course, regardless of anybody's situation. I can't get to tournaments to become one of your Elite Rulers... and yet, I have informed opinions and extensive knowledge of this game, and just as much ability to research and learn elements of it.
In that case, why have message boards at all..? Why not just replace them with this section entirely, and restrict status updates to the top 10, allowing only them to preach just how and what this game should and could be?
Because if you're not even going to consider what anybody else has to say, regardless of evidence and not even considering the validity of their opinion then why bother allowing anybody to even have an opinion?

Now, if you don't have any actual responses to the issues with JG raised here, how about you be quiet and stop derailing it, hm?

 

[Hot Rod Dave]

Now, if you don't have any actual responses to the issues with JG raised here, how about you be quiet and stop derailing it, hm?

I would be careful here sir. I got banned for telling a mod exactly what I think and telling to STFU. Just some advice.

 

[Donutman]

The point is your argument is invalid. It is completely true that most people place their opinion based of their ability at the game. If you can't JG; "OMFGDGSDFNDFGVFNDSX REMOVE JG ITS FER NUBZ".

If you can't ... I don't know, something hard; "OMFGSFGDSHXDHFN REMOVE ___ CUZ ITS POINTLESS"

Why are you against JG so much?

You seriously think the reason people want just guard gone is because they cant do it? Because i can do it, and its not hard. As far as my feelings against just guard go to page 4 and read my post. And i stand by this still

What? Just how the fuck does being good at a game change if something was stupid or not? Just because you are good at something does not mean you are always right. If I all of sudden became the number 1 soul calibur player in the universe and became unbeatable, should everything I say become right? If i became that good then would you believe me if I said "the sky is not blue, it is red." or if I said "ZWEI is OP nerf him please" would that make what I say right because I'm good? No, it wouldnt, as both statements would be fucking stupid, regardless of who says it and how good they are at a video game a stupid thing is still stupid

that and garjan already said what needed to be said.

 

[Donutman]

Copypasta from other thread

My problem with JG is like what others have said here, being able to use it to escape tech traps is retarded. Its nowhere near as risky as people are trying to pass it off as seeing you can just double tap guard every time you block, it completly ruins alot of the cast that arent even that great to begin with (ZWEI, Siegfried, Xiba, etc.) that and also how poorly developed it is in this game(JG AND GI AT THE SAME TIME BRO.) it feels like they just shoehorned it in without putting any thought into it all. It really doesnt feel like it works here at all, it might be all ok for 3rd Strike but this is not 3rd strike. it just doesnt work in this game.

 

[Paranormal_Oreo]

It reduces Ezio's successfully landed 6B BE from 28 to 70.

Actually that increases the damage. Read again. :) And you can't JG OTG. Make a vid of you JGing the 2nd hit of his 6B BE or it didn't happen. :)

Tira's UB isn't a threat anymore...

It never was...

 

[Hot Rod Dave]

I personally think JG is a good mechanic. I dont want to see it go.

However I would like to see it be a little more viable in fights. I personally feel that there isnt enough reward for a good JG to have it be a crucial part of my game.

Now in my own little 80 year old world, Im not fighting top players all the time. Im playing with myself (stay with me here) and a bunch of online warriors. So the argument could be said "JG'ing is for top players". I say horseshit to that. If its in the game, why not make it viable to all players.

Im prolly gonna get shit for this but, I might be all right with getting rid of the GI system and replacing it with the JG system so long as its updated and tweeked.

 

[IdleMind]

After all, SCPartisan said so himself. And his word is the Gospel, remember?

Green is an ugly color man.

 

[Death_Emperor_X]

I fear that ppl can JG just like the CPU's if they are skilled enough. In Legendary Souls I sometimes have CPU's JG my side step vertical as Asty. They shouldn't be doing that, because their knocked on hard to the ground as I stomp my axe on their heads, so there for they are stunned on the ground. However, when it comes to my side step vertical, they sometimes JG it. I fear as if it can be done by online players as well.

Also, JG is sometimes shocking on how ppl can do it when their backs are faced towards you. I wonder if this can be done too by players. It must be, because CPU's can do it. So yeah, JG is somewhat surprising to me when some cpu's can do it in a weird way. Anyways, I think it would be alot more nice if they just kept parries only. It is the original basic way a fighting game could ask for. Not something fancy, like JG. Also, we could use more moves that allows other characters to counter attack like Cervantes's moves, Nightmares smack, Viola's *come here* pose, Pattycakes's shield cover & I dearly miss Astaroth's body slam vertical counters. Moves like those, we could use more.

I'm sad now, they took Asty's body slam counter away. It was so useful too.... -.-

So yeah, I think it should be removed. I'm not really whining about it, nor complaining, but just saying it'd be alot more nicer if it was just originals only. If it were just originals only, they should also make it a little bit more tougher if they ever had done it. We don't need it too simple where your enemy parried you while he's/she's standing in his/her parry form for 3 seconds. Cut the time frame, making it a little more risky & rewardful if successful.

 

[DeathInMyEyes]

I believe JG is a very intricate mechanic and should be kept, and if necessary, improved upon.

Simply put, JGing allows some kind of above-average defense that doesn't require meter, but will still fail should you buckle under pressure. In addition, though its safe for the most part, it, like all aspects of Calibur, has its counters.

Garijan was tossing Astaroth's 44(A) around as an example. I'll use that, too. Astaroth's 44(A) is a huge, horizontal mid that grants a lot of advantage on block. It kills sidestep and it kills backstep. Without JG, the move leaves you with two defensive options: GI and interruption. Good luck interrupting it under pressure (the only time it should be used, anyway). Plus, Astaroth can short-charge it for the people who like to interrupt it. GI, costing meter, would be an unfair trade; Astaroth gets an attempt at half-life from an unavoidable mid horizontal that's +6 on block, and your only reliable option would be to spend half a bar of meter to put him into a 50/50. Doesn't seem fair to me. If JG was removed, Astaroth could 44(A) all day, and unless you spaced it properly, you wouldn't be able to get away from it for free.

JG prevents that. For a half-life, mid, horizontal, +6 on block, backstep-killing move, JG balances it. And 44(A) isn't going to be JG'd every time - with the right amount of pressure, people can be expected to fuck up the execution of JG.

Also, you mentioned BB6 - its -13 on JG. The most you have to worry about is a K and AA most of the time. Besides, you can literally do B > Grab to discourage stepping and JGing. If they start ducking or hesitating, BB6 is there to give you that +2 on block.

Basically, JG gives you a fair shot at defense. Use it properly, and you're awarded with no pushback, no guard damage, meter, and free damage or advantage. Use it improperly, and you're open to fast lows, grabs, and strings stopped early. Also, like Eli said in the other thread, it wards off ping-pong play.


All that being said, yes, ukemi JG should be removed, especially if it can stop combos and not just tech traps. I believe its a glitch anyway. Bring back just ukemi in its stead.

EDIT: Also, GI JGing should go too. I think that, too, is a glitch, anyways.

 

[Death_Emperor_X]

I believe JG is a very intricate mechanic and should be kept, and if necessary, improved upon.

Simply put, JGing allows some kind of above-average defense that doesn't require meter, but will still fail should you buckle under pressure. In addition, though its safe for the most part, it, like all aspects of Calibur, has its counters.

Garijan was tossing Astaroth's 44(A) around as an example. I'll use that, too. Astaroth's 44(A) is a huge, horizontal mid that grants a lot of advantage on block. It kills sidestep and it kills backstep. Without JG, the move leaves you with two defensive options: GI and interruption. Good luck interrupting it under pressure (the only time it should be used, anyway). Plus, Astaroth can short-charge it for the people who like to interrupt it. GI, costing meter, would be an unfair trade; Astaroth gets an attempt at half-life from an unavoidable mid horizontal that's +6 on block, and your only reliable option would be to spend half a bar of meter to put him into a 50/50. Doesn't seem fair to me. If JG was removed, Astaroth could 44(A) all day, and unless you spaced it properly, you wouldn't be able to get away from it for free.

JG prevents that. For a half-life, mid, horizontal, +6 on block, backstep-killing move, JG balances it. And 44(A) isn't going to be JG'd every time - with the right amount of pressure, people can be expected to fuck up the execution of JG.

Also, you mentioned BB6 - its -13 on JG. The most you have to worry about is a K and AA most of the time. Besides, you can literally do B > Grab to discourage stepping and JGing. If they start ducking or hesitating, BB6 is there to give you that +2 on block.

Basically, JG gives you a fair shot at defense. Use it properly, and you're awarded with no pushback, no guard damage, meter, and free damage or advantage. Use it improperly, and you're open to fast lows, grabs, and strings stopped early. Also, like Eli said in the other thread, it wards off ping-pong play.


All that being said, yes, ukemi JG should be removed, especially if it can stop combos and not just tech traps. I believe its a glitch anyway. Bring back just ukemi in its stead.

Agree'd, the parry meter cost should go too. Along with JG, & just have it normal risky/rewardful parry only at your own will. Again, its the nicest way to put it.

 

[DeathInMyEyes]

Agree'd, the parry meter cost should go too.

I don't agree. Taking meter away from GIs would give everyone "free" CEs for guard impacting anything. At least with JG, you have to know your punishes for the most part. Some characters can just wing it, sure, but if they assume the wrong punish, they can end up getting punished themselves.

In addition, Viola and similar characters would have their disembodied attacks parried all day. JGing these attacks will nullify the pushback, guard damage, and give you meter. In some cases, it will negate their advantage completely. Guard impacting would simply force another 50/50, or, if too far away, it would put Viola or whoever at a disadvantage, making those disembodied attacks almost useless. Unless the disembodied GIs worked like they did in SC4 and left the guard impacting party at disadvantage, which isn't a good thing either. Just guard fixes this, and meter'd GIs give a fair trade-off of meter for a 50/50 or free (well, mostly free) CE.

 

[Death_Emperor_X]

I don't agree. Taking meter away from GIs would give everyone "free" CEs for guard impacting anything. At least with JG, you have to know your punishes for the most part. Some characters can just wing it, sure, but if they assume the wrong punish, they can end up getting punished themselves.

In addition, Viola and similar characters would have their disembodied attacks parried all day. JGing these attacks will nullify the pushback, guard damage, and give you meter. In some cases, it will negate their advantage completely. Guard impacting would simply force another 50/50, or, if too far away, it would put Viola or whoever at a disadvantage, making those disembodied attacks almost useless. Unless the disembodied GIs worked like they did in SC4 and left the guard impacting party at disadvantage, which isn't a good thing either. Just guard fixes this, and meter'd GIs give a fair trade-off of meter for a 50/50 or free (well, mostly free) CE.

What if the original costless parries had the same reward type as JG? (Like if you JG'd your opponet your most likely to get a free hit) What would be your take on that?

(Keep in mind, I mentioned earlier that parries should be made a little more difficult)

 

[Syn_SC]

I have no issue with JG whatsoever, in fact I feel it adds depth to the metagame. That said my favourite SF is 3rd strike, hands down.... Can't think why, lol.

 

[Ramus]

My problem with JG is only that give slower characters a drawback and I believe that a in-game tool shouldn't give a unfair edge to some characters and drawback to others. Anyway I guess could be toned down a little.