Useless moves

Delloso

Delloso

[10] Knight
I noticed a lot of soul arenas have threads like this, so I decided to make one for Raph. I'll make a list of moves that I consider to have low applications and hopefully we can discover hidden potential on some of them. You can post your own list too. Here's mine:

3K
33A
prep A+B/3A+B:5
44A+Bg
66K
wrA
6AB/prep AB
66A+Bg
 
4B+K

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only time this *SHOULD* be able to hit is if Algol teleports...but instead you get BT B+K.
 
"facepalm" how the hell did I forget that?

Anyway, I got it to land once on training against Natsu. If she does her B+K jump at close range, 4B+K should be able to connect. But now I'm not sure if it was really 4B+K or just BT B+K...
 
Delloso said:
I noticed a lot of soul arenas have threads like this, so I decided to make one for Raph. I'll make a list of moves that I consider to have low applications and hopefully we can discover hidden potential on some of them. You can post your own list too. Here's mine:

3K
33A
prep A+B/3A+B:5
44A+Bg
66K
11BB
wrA
6AB/prep AB
66A+Bg
Click to expand...

None of these are particularly useless tho'. I've gotten decent mileage out of all those. Some are quite specific and I did just think of a good reason to 44A+Bg now. They are highly situational for sure, you are quite right about the low applications.
 
A lot of the moves may have some use just to see if your opponent knows how to react to them on block. Otherwise, yes I've got a similar list.
Delloso said:
wrA
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Despite this move being really low damage, it has incredible frames, range and tracks 1 side really good. Would have abused the hell out of this if it was his single A. I need to learn to do iwrA, but that pushes the impact frame to be too slow.
6AB/prep AB
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I find this move pretty reliable for stopping step at close range and if I wanted to enter prep. 3(B)~prepAB is pretty reliable at punishing pyrrha's 236B. Likewise, hitting 3(B)~prepAB if the opponent's mis aligned genearlly works.

I don't like 3K despite the OK frames because it has worse range than 3A and is way linear. However, if the opponent and I are trading safe close range moves up close, I suppose I will throw out a 3K once in a while and try a reverse mixup from there.
66K has use = GB, instant ringout. Always good to end rounds with no meter.
 
I try to use 3K in situations where I feel 3A and 2A will be outta range. I like the move even though it's not amazing.
 
Delloso said:
I noticed a lot of soul arenas have threads like this, so I decided to make one for Raph. I'll make a list of moves that I consider to have low applications and hopefully we can discover hidden potential on some of them. You can post your own list too. Here's mine:
3K
33A
prep A+B/3A+B:5
44A+Bg
66K
11BB
wrA
6AB/prep AB
66A+Bg
Click to expand...

3K is not an awesome move but is safe and hits mid nonetheless. I sometimes use it as bait or a round ender when they tend to expect a low coming. 33A may be low dmg and unsafe but it spaces really well at tip range. Useful against short range characters. How is Prep A+B useless? It combos after 66B for the highest dmg.
 
Real_Bojack said:
Some are quite specific and I did just think of a good reason to 44A+Bg now.
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Do share it if possible. I'll make a brief summary of why I picked those moves:

3K: just feels pointless. Raph has more reliable mids at all ranges, like 3B for damage/pressure and 3A for tracking/zoning. Does 3K even track at all?

33A: lacks range and it's very unsafe, low reward, TC frames unreliable. At that range you have much safer tracking moves like 2K. If opponent is gonna step into a TC move or a duck, just wait and punish.

prep A+B: I have explained multiple times why I consider this move to be useless (outside of the combo). But I feel like it's one of these moves that are underestimated. For example, the start up animation of this move is quite similar to a SE entry. When I'm focusing on beating SE on reaction, I fall for prep A+B almost all the time. Might be worth investigating (or maybe I just suck).

44A+Bg: I personally never use it because the amount of time it takes to put Raph in prep is more than enough for opponent to come in and beat it. But it might have potential if I find a way to mix it up with 44A+B.

66K: sure, it's good for ROs after guard breaks. Other than that, I forget this move even exists.

11BB: Raph has stronger and safer lows, and 11K is better for oki mixups. Also, there's always a better combo ender possibility than using this move.

wrA: When I'm in FC and I have the advantage, I try to mix up with a mid (wrB/FC 3B) and a throw. I end up forgetting about wrA and wrK completely most of the time, because a throw is better for any situation these moves might fit.

6AB/prep AB: I don't think they're "useless", I just never use them excluding rare occasions and combos, mainly because of range. Definitely a move I need to use more.

66A+Bg: I don't need to explain this one.
 
Delloso said:
Do share it if possible. I'll make a brief summary of why I picked those moves:

3K: just feels pointless. Raph has more reliable mids at all ranges, like 3B for damage/pressure and 3A for tracking/zoning. Does 3K even track at all?
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I forgot to mention: 6K was 3K in SC2 and 3K was wrK. They switched it up (the 6K right now is perfect and should not move) but I guess they put wrK as 3K and it stayed like that ever since. 3K doesn't track and probably needs a change in SC6.

prep A+B: I have explained multiple times why I consider this move to be useless (outside of the combo). But I feel like it's one of these moves that are underestimated. For example, the start up animation of this move is quite similar to a SE entry. When I'm focusing on beating SE on reaction, I fall for prep A+B almost all the time. Might be worth investigating (or maybe I just suck).
Click to expand...

I get you now. I'm sorry for missing the point.
 
44a+bG: After some knockdowns, it makes for halfway decent oki pressure mixup with the unblockable. If they tech and try to step the unblockable, they risk face the tracking moves of Prep. If they try to tech without sidestep, they eat the unblockable. Should be all right when you're pressuring your foe to get off the ground sooner with 66A+B, 33B, and the like. JG shouldn't be too big of an issue with adding a slight delay to Prep attacks.

11B: It's pretty difficult to block and the odd animation makes it surprising. I'm not sure if you can CH confirm 11BB or if it's untechable for grounded foes after the first hit, so I guess it's limited in usefulness.
 
Delloso said:
Elaborate Bojack!!!

3K
33A
prep A+B/3A+B:5
44A+Bg
66K
11BB
wrA
6AB/prep AB
66A+Bg
Click to expand...

3K - serves a similar purpose as 3A but with a bit more range. It's fairly redundant with 6K but can be used like I said instead of 3A in similar "decently quick M" fashion.
33A - can actually stop step/TCers, it's not great but it's one of the few things Raph has that can hit some one stepping AND crouching. Also seems to have a bit of phantom range too.
prep A+B/3A+B:5 - ummmm, oddball uses on this I agree. At a high level the telegraphing is too severe.
44A+Bg - I dunno yet and would have to test this but perhaps after the cancel Raph will re-orient himself with the stepper if done with a decent amount of time so the opp can't conveniently interrupt, THEN you can attempt to Prep BB BE or something.
66K - GI~RO or GI~wall splat.
11BB - The two hit aspect of this lends to shenanigans where you can do a simple foot poke and they have to wait for the next one. Mix this up with 33B to keep opp on toes.
wrA - ranged step kill with good frames. Done iwsA gets some TCish frames. Range is actually decent on this one. Also good to do if peeps will step after moves that may leave Raph RC.
6AB/prep AB - In close 3B~pAB does more damage than pBB and actually can stop step to a degree. Mix up with 6BB for in close stuff.
66A+Bg - Tough to defend this move, primarily because it's slow as balls cancle for a slow as balls launcher. Do in wake up/tech situations after some training and you may be able to catch some one napping and get a 2A or 2K in or something.

So, out of all of those, good solid uses for all but iPrep, 44A+Bg and 66A+Bg and even those have some uses...... maybe. I actually feel Prep K BE is the least useful Raph move (as of this writing) because if the 1st hit is blocked Raph is FI-ZUCKED and they have days to get condoms and lube before trashing Raph.
 
Real_Bojack said:
Gameplay info...

I actually feel Prep K BE is the least useful Raph move (as of this writing) because if the 1st hit is blocked Raph is FI-ZUCKED and they have days to get condoms and lube before trashing Raph.
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*Facepalm....that last sentence is just wayyy too hilarious. At least you can make them feel Prep KBE if you Prep 4 successfully and have enough meter. Also, if what you described happens to Raph, then try to retaliate with his penetrating CE haha.
 
I have mixed feelings about prep K BE. If you're next to a wall or the ring's edge it's worth the risk and discourages opponents from stepping and ducking, which is crucial for safer prep usage. Other than that, I feel it's viability is pretty much character specific, some characters can't punish it as hard as others and risk/reward is either balanced or on Raph's side. I believe Leixia and Hilde are examples. And of course, it's guaranteed after prep 4 parry and can be used for whiff punishment.

Making prep K BE hit confirmable would probably make it broken, though it's the only buff I can think of. Aside from fixing the glitch and perhaps giving the second hit of the move more range.

Question: If I GI someone and they have their back to the wall, which option gets me more damage on the long run, 66K or 1B? That's assuming they don't GI back, because if they do I know 44A+B is the way to go.
 
Fendante said:
*Facepalm....that last sentence is just wayyy too hilarious. At least you can make them feel Prep KBE if you Prep 4 successfully and have enough meter. Also, if what you described happens to Raph, then try to retaliate with his penetrating CE haha.
Click to expand...

Prep k BE is good for Prep 4 of course. I just don't particularly care for high stakes "If this works I win big, if it doesn't I lose big" type moves and strats. I've used Prep k BE a few times and every time I haven't been hurt for using it I feel like I got lucky, not that I "won" or anything. I just don't like the move but if some one can make it work excellent.
 
Delloso said:
wrA: When I'm in FC and I have the advantage, I try to mix up with a mid (wrB/FC 3B) and a throw. I end up forgetting about wrA and wrK completely most of the time, because a throw is better for any situation these moves might fit.
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I don't always pay at grab range. wrA thrown out at anything near 3A range means backstepping immediately after is really hard to deal with.

1B is way more reliable than 66K for me (the way the opponent splats)
 
Real_Bojack said:
Prep k BE is good for Prep 4 of course. I just don't particularly care for high stakes "If this works I win big, if it doesn't I lose big" type moves and strats. I've used Prep k BE a few times and every time I haven't been hurt for using it I feel like I got lucky, not that I "won" or anything. I just don't like the move but if some one can make it work excellent.
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I understand. It's not my favorite move either, but your humorous statement on it just made me chuckle a bit.
 
I don't use 1K at all, but perhaps I should, if only for the tracking. But it's frames are just depressing, it's slow (i17), launch punishable on block with no pushback, only tracks one side and is negative on hit. Plus it's a high. But at the same time it's Raph's fastest TC move and gives more rewards on CH than every other horizontal Raph has, aside from 22K. Not sure if it deserves a spot on the list. Was sc4 SE beta K any better?
 
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