MTfighter Wins Winter Brawl 7

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Ceirnian said:
IIt always comes down to a top player picking up the character and showing what it is capable of. After that everyone says that they thought <insert character> was good from the start and distance themselves from past comments.
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Precisely what is going on in this thread right now.
 
LostProvidence said:
2. You all are pretty much saying that MTF won because he's a good player. By that logic, you all lose because you are bad players. If there's something I'm missing here, either get better or change characters.
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You know, I wish I could say trolling statements like this and get away with it.

Rational people, realize that there are many, many steps on the ladder from outstanding to atrocious. The fact that the people here are saying he won because of his high level of skill doesn't mean that those that are not him don't have skill. What that means is that we're saying that he is a better player than us. That's no knock against us, because being competent in most regards is fine, being one of the best in the world is a special thing, and if everybody was the best then being the best would be a very ordinary accomplishment.

Trying to twist that logic into your own form is trademark of the FGC, where honestly talking about your character and your weaknesses, or any other characters and their strengths is considered nothing but whining if said in a negative manner, even when it's just simple honesty. We don't win majors because we don't possess such an extraordinary level of skill that we compensate for not only the weaknesses of the character we play, but the advantages that the others we play against obtain, all the while out mind-gaming and reading our opponent at the same time. That's not being a weak player, that's called being normal.

Just because Stephen Hawking exists doesn't mean Bill Gates isn't a smart man. Same logic applies here.

One person winning a major with a character doesn't change that. Playing Soul Calibur is different from playing Leixia. Extraordinary fundamentals, great reads, situational awareness, and lots of training won this one for MTFighter. And he deserves every bit of his victory. I'm happy he won. And glad doesn't even fucking describe it.
 
AKNova7 said:
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When people argue, they take the argument of their opponent and they break it down and explain why it is wrong. Unless they're a politician, they do not state an argument and then immediately extrapolate upon it to the point where whatever they're saying sounds good and what the other person is saying sounds bad.

So, here's a tip if you're trying to make a point. First, do not start your argument with such a condescending remark. Secondly, know what exactly it is you're arguing against. And, finally, tell why that argument is wrong and make it understood why yours is why.

As it stands, your 'argument' could be a general statement of your opinion said to anybody. I could easily break your argument without even going deep into it by asking who said you don't have to do a lot to become a good player (I never did) or who said the other Leixia players don't have skill (if you you didn't, ironically, try to twist that part of my quote into something to fit your argument, it would be easily seen that I've only said that most aren't as good as they believe they are and there's room for improvement, thus a lack of understanding and misplaced blame of losses). You can be offended if you want, but, if you want to have some type of argument or discussion with me, do not misconstrue my words. Thank you.
 
Moldredd said:
I don't see this character as being bad or low tier at all, honestly. Overall she's easy to use, safe, has good effective movelist and destroy gauge probably the fastest in the game. Maybe that's why Namco decided to reduce her damage output. Because they felt like it was somewhat overkill?

I may be wrong of course but for what I've seen, she's definitely not bad at all. That spot goes out for characters like Raphael and ZWEI, whom are definitely lacking in various departments, not just one. That spot it simply isn't for Leixia.

PS. Sorry for invading but I found this to be a fresh thread with healthy discussion and wanted to share my opinion. Have a nice day.
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I agree that pre-patch WS B[BE] was too good because it was fast and did excellent guard damage. It's guard damage was nerfed in the patch but the move wasn't completely pointless. It's ment to evade verticals. Double CE was overkill because it's so easy to get CH damage in this game. I don't find her easy because she has to work for wins. I think you mean SCIII Xianghua & SCV Mitsu being their easy to use & OPed because of their damage output.
 
I still maintain that if you JG the first hits of 3A+B and WS B BE respectively, the full string should be JG'd and her hiboxes come bullshit fully attatched but she still demands a skilled player and has the tools to win. IF and its a big if, you're good enough, that is.

I think the charm behind Leixia is that succesful Leixia is on the player not the character. I could pick up mitsu tomorrow and get carried much further than I deserve to, but if I won big with Leixia, that win is indusputably on you as a player alone...*
And don't get me wrong, when Kalas beats me because of some hitbox bullshit I get fucking salty, but he's still beaten me.



*... Unless you were dropped on your head as a child or called vincentrayne, which to be frank is rather interchangeable, lol.
 
Its ashame what some of this thread has come to..seeing its suppose to be about congratulating MT on his victory and to everyone else who participated in winter brawl.

@Frayhua: No need to attack tiz. He learned from his mistakes and from the last time I played him he's gotten better with leixia I hope he continues to improve in the future. And I dunno why whenever you re quote someone you talk about something thats completely off topic sometimes.....

And guys calm it down on the comments at vincentrayne... yeah sure he said some pretty messed up stuff, But he doesn't even play this game anymore (to my knowledge) just don't take him serious. If he was still playing the game and trying to improve with leixia he probably wouldn't even say those comments in the first place.
 
LostProvidence said:
When people argue, they take the argument of their opponent and they break it down and explain why it is wrong. Unless they're a politician, they do not state an argument and then immediately extrapolate upon it to the point where whatever they're saying sounds good and what the other person is saying sounds bad.

So, here's a tip if you're trying to make a point. First, do not start your argument with such a condescending remark. Secondly, know what exactly it is you're arguing against. And, finally, tell why that argument is wrong and make it understood why yours is why.

As it stands, your 'argument' could be a general statement of your opinion said to anybody. I could easily break your argument without even going deep into it by asking who said you don't have to do a lot to become a good player (I never did) or who said the other Leixia players don't have skill (if you you didn't, ironically, try to twist that part of my quote into something to fit your argument, it would be easily seen that I've only said that most aren't as good as they believe they are and there's room for improvement, thus a lack of understanding and misplaced blame of losses). You can be offended if you want, but, if you want to have some type of argument or discussion with me, do not misconstrue my words. Thank you.
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LP, I normally respect most things you say, but I wanna point out that what you say here applies to this whole thread.

What points has Frayhua actually made? That MTF is good, Leixia is "too good", and that people who disagree are scrubs.

We all know Kalas and Kayane think Leixia is too weak. Are you gonna tell me you think Frayhua knows more about this game than they do?

I know you think Leixia's stronger than is popularly supposed, and you might have noticed from my reactions to your other posts that I think the same. But that's not what this thread is about is it. It's disguised as "well done MTF, you rock!!" but what it actually says is "I am Frayhua and everyone who disagrees with me is a worthless scrub".

In this thread, there is no focus on matchups, there is no focus on tools, or on risk/reward, or on anything remotely relevant to assessing Leixia's strengths and weaknesses as a character. There is only one player yelling like a little child that "he was right" because another player won a tournament. Honestly, if a player's focus when talking about viability is based on whoever won the last tournament, then I would say that he or she simply has no idea what they're talking about.

For what it's worth, I think Leixia is a decent character who is capable of winning a high level tournament. If the Leixia player is the best player there, that player should be expected to win. If that player is one of many strong players, then he or she still has a good chance, but will find it much tougher to overcome the odds. The simplest reason for this is because of the reward many other characters get for a single good read.

No, Leixia is not useless, and yes, some players use her "low tier" status as a crutch/excuse for their own weaknesses. But this thread addresses nothing and to be honest it seems little more than lame opportunistic gloating.
 
@Hyrul

I'm going to quote the quote the stuff directly because I dunno how to do the multi-quote thing.

"What points has Frayhua actually made? That MTF is good, Leixia is "too good", and that people who disagree are scrubs."

I can only speak for myself. The first post I made was something of a (black) joke.

"We all know Kalas and Kayane think Leixia is too weak. Are you gonna tell me you think Frayhua knows more about this game than they do?"

I don't think she's too weak at all. I think she needs a damage buff on some things but also that if you give her too much then she could become silly and easy to play. I do not think we need another Amy but, should that happen, I won't complain.

Also I will just say that, on this subject, being a better player doesn't necessarily mean you're more knowledge or understand more about everything than the next person (even if it applies to myself). Two things that come to mind was that people were crying about Tira being nerfed when she was easily just as broken if not more broken than prepatch Natsu and the travesty that was Belial's super high level balance patch suggestion thread (that I wasn't allowed to give an opinion on because I'm terrible). In the end, though, it's all subjective and many points can be argued with many angles.

"I know you think Leixia's stronger than is popularly supposed, and you might have noticed from my reactions to your other posts that I think the same. But that's not what this thread is about is it. It's disguised as "well done MTF, you rock!!" but what it actually says is "I am Frayhua and everyone who disagrees with me is a worthless scrub"."

This is all true.

"In this thread, there is no focus on matchups, there is no focus on tools, or on risk/reward, or on anything remotely relevant to assessing Leixia's strengths and weaknesses as a character. There is only one player yelling like a little child that "he was right" because another player won a tournament. Honestly, if a player's focus when talking about viability is based on whoever won the last tournament, then I would say that he or she simply has no idea what they're talking about."

One of the things, though, is that how much can you changed people's mindset about things when they're in a negative place that they don't want to get out of? I mean, granted, there are players like you, Mick, MTFighter, Zero, and Kalas who stay grinding with Leixia but it's easier to show someone the bright side of things than tell them. Seriously, the attitude of some people here when Leixia WINS is that, 'o, it must've been luck' or 'o, you etched out a victory because so and so didn't know the matchup'. But as soon as Leixia loses, it turns into, 'he knew all of the holes in her game and it was unwinnable' or 'you tried but there was nothing you can do. It gets annoying after a while.

Especially coming from a game where you had characters like Talim, Mina, Rock, Raph, Sieg, Yoda, and then Hilde, Ivy, and Amy where, if your character a character was bad, it was readily apparent and to the point of being humorously bad, some of the attitudes here are just unwarranted and uneducated.

"For what it's worth, I think Leixia is a decent character who is capable of winning a high level tournament. If the Leixia player is the best player there, that player should be expected to win. If that player is one of many strong players, then he or she still has a good chance, but will find it much tougher to overcome the odds. The simplest reason for this is because of the reward many other characters get for a single good read."

I agree.

"No, Leixia is not useless, and yes, some players use her "low tier" status as a crutch/excuse for their own weaknesses. But this thread addresses nothing and to be honest it seems little more than lame opportunistic gloating."


This is also true, but some of it is kinda funny. I was actually going to stay out of the thread but I just didn't like some of the stuff I read. I will not post in this thread again.
 
Age_of_Truth said:
LP, I normally respect most things you say, but I wanna point out that what you say here applies to this whole thread.

What points has Frayhua actually made? That MTF is good, Leixia is "too good", and that people who disagree are scrubs.
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All facts

Age_of_Truth said:
We all know Kalas and Kayane think Leixia is too weak. Are you gonna tell me you think Frayhua knows more about this game than they do?
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That's their opinion on Leixia. I'm not saying I'm better than anyone.

Age_of_Truth said:
I know you think Leixia's stronger than is popularly supposed, and you might have noticed from my reactions to your other posts that I think the same. But that's not what this thread is about is it. It's disguised as "well done MTF, you rock!!" but what it actually says is "I am Frayhua and everyone who disagrees with me is a worthless scrub".
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I know what this thread is about. It's about congratulating MTFighter shoving it to the forum scrubs & anyone who is constantly complain about Leixia.

Age_of_Truth said:
In this thread, there is no focus on matchups, there is no focus on tools, or on risk/reward, or on anything remotely relevant to assessing Leixia's strengths and weaknesses as a character. There is only one player yelling like a little child that "he was right" because another player won a tournament. Honestly, if a player's focus when talking about viability is based on whoever won the last tournament, then I would say that he or she simply has no idea what they're talking about.
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This thread isn't about character viablity.

Age_of_Truth said:
For what it's worth, I think Leixia is a decent character who is capable of winning a high level tournament. If the Leixia player is the best player there, that player should be expected to win. If that player is one of many strong players, then he or she still has a good chance, but will find it much tougher to overcome the odds. The simplest reason for this is because of the reward many other characters get for a single good read.

No, Leixia is not useless, and yes, some players use her "low tier" status as a crutch/excuse for their own weaknesses. But this thread addresses nothing and to be honest it seems little more than lame opportunistic gloating.
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Very true, Age of Truth, but this thread isn't about gloating at all. It's about congratulating MTFighter.
 
Age_of_Truth said:
We all know Kalas and Kayane think Leixia is too weak. Are you gonna tell me you think Frayhua knows more about this game than they do?
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I was only waiting for anybody to notice that following Frayhua's logic, I'm the biggest scrub alive.

I didn't really want to get involved in this Leixia good/bad discussion, because this thread didn't (and still doesn't) seem worth it.

I still think Leixia's too weak and I'm sure Hyrul as well as Zero know what I mean when remembering the discussion about possible Leixia changes we had some months ago. When I say "too weak", I mean it literally - in terms of pure damage, especially on launchers. Hyrul and Zero will surely remember how I wanted 3B to do like 6dmg points more, and not 66BB CE doing 200dmg. Too weak =/= trash. Too weak = more damage to me. Well to a certain extent only of course. But that's not even the point here.

The point is that people - again - jump on the "I-draw-the-ultimate-tier-list-conclusion"-train because of one result. Which is pure bullshit. People who say that Leixia is "very good" or "too good" because of MT Fighter winning a major are, in my opinion, not any better than the Leixia players who use the excuse of Leixia being too weak in order to justify their loss (which I have never done by the way). It's exactly the same, but in different directions.

So yeah. While I consider Leixia still "too weak" and I still consider her "lower mid", I STILL consider her viable. Very much viable. (And if I ever said she's an unviable piece of shit after patch 1.03 I'm sorry for that. But I don't think I've ever said that.) Why would I still be here, if I didn't? Unlike other SC-games, "lower mid" in SC5 does not mean trash-tier.

But in the end one shouldn't pay too much attention to tier lists or MU-charts anyway. It all comes down to the players. And I've experienced that you rather expect yourself to lose when you have in mind that you are "supposed" to lose according to the tier list or some virtual MU-numbers.

Have a nice day.
 
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