Talim is almost as bad as SC4 ver.

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ZeroEffect317 said:
This just sounds like frustration more than anything. She may have to be played a bit different, which is throwing a lot of us off right now, but surely she's not complete trash. And Sophitia is good, but this just feels like extremes to me.

I'm still trying to figure out placing and baiting the new mechanics, lol. Have you tried out Mina? What do you think of her?
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Yes I have tried out Mina, Ivy and Sophie.

Mina has one of the best groundgame in SC6. I usually go for 1B or 2A+B. If an opponnent blocks 2A+B, I get to play the crouching mindgames. Mina shines in crouchinng mindgames.
I've noticed a lot of people knows Mina's strings, but it does not make her terrible. Her 2+A could use a little bit more range against fast characters.
Mina controls zoning better than Ivy.
Mina has great whiff punishment.
 
im just kinda mad still that with the title of this thread it's still being entertained. This is hyperbolic. Someone who's bitching because Talim isn't the obvious best character in the game.

She's leagues better than four. period. End of discussion,
 
I feel like people like Destinizish don't even know how to play the game.

First of all, stop the BS "Fast Character". If you say "Fast Character" I assume you don't know jack shit about SC. Talim's fastest move sits at i13 like before, that is not "fast" by any means, its the standard for almost the entire cast, she isn't beating anybody at stealing turns. She also gets nothing off a standard AA, AA(A+B) can not be hit confirmed and is unsafe if blocked, and AAB strings never hit even on CH.

Talim's 3B only net you sub 50 damage, that is indeed lower than most character's launchers. 66A+B is the only one that net you good damage, but requires you to commit to stance which makes it unsafe. Its insanely slow and very poor range. Without commitment to stance, you get 30ish damage with no followup.

Talim has 0 lows that combo, B+K ->A is the only one that net you something, and its less than 40 damage in total and your opponent has more than 50+ frames to read that. If 1A somehow connect your opponent is probably lagging, there is no way that is hitting anything offline. B+K->B I already mentioned, is launcher punishable on block. Most opponent can get 65+ dmg easily if they block it.

Mina has no problem dealing with "fast" characters lol. She has a standard 2A and very good FC options, that's all she needs. She is more limited at close range and plenty of character flaws, but not because of "fast" characters. Online is a different story due to lag, but nobody takes online seriously.

Talim and Mina is perfectly comparable because of the amount of effort devs bother to fix them. They were both trash and unviable characters, one (mina) got buffed in everyway, and is now a viable character (very far from top tier still). Then we got Talim who LOST tools she had from SC:BD. If you think Talim is somehow improved in this version you don't know how to play Talim. The old Talim (still very bad) had 55-60 damage combo off mixups and AA. Had a low that's not reactable with mini-tracking and plus on hit. There were also no BS invun supers and instant push back, so Talim can actually pressure if played well. Taking tools away from one of the worst character in the game is a sad joke.
 
I will agree that soul charge being a push back cut scene hurts her alot. Specially since the opponent builds meter for being smacked. It's like you're being punished for playing well.
 
thinkingofaname said:
Talim and Mina is perfectly comparable because of the amount of effort devs bother to fix them. They were both trash and unviable characters, one (mina) got buffed in everyway, and is now a viable character (very far from top tier still). Then we got Talim who LOST tools she had from SC:BD. If you think Talim is somehow improved in this version you don't know how to play Talim. The old Talim (still very bad) had 55-60 damage combo off mixups and AA. Had a low that's not reactable with mini-tracking and plus on hit. There were also no BS invun supers and instant push back, so Talim can actually pressure if played well. Taking tools away from one of the worst character in the game is a sad joke.
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But the point @Destinizish and I were both making, is that it's more than just "effort" on the devs part, it's the Archetype.

They buffed a lot of Talim's SC4/SC BD moves. She's much better now than she's ever been since SC2. BUT, that doesn't matter if the metagame of SC6 revolves around high damage whiff punishes and zoning. THAT's why Mina is so strong. They didn't buff a ton of her properties, they just threw damage at her and fixed the holes in her strings. (AA jails now, FC 3AK doesn't whiff vs crouching, 3B always launches up close, etc).

In fact, they actually put a lot of effort into redesigning Talim down to her stance movements. Talim's issues come from the fact that this is, what feels like, a "Zoner's Calibur game".

Her pressure, even in BD wasn't great because she was way more unsafe in that game. Yes, she may have gotten CH AA6BA, but every move in stance was super unsafe. At least now half of them are safe. I think she needs some buffs in smaller areas, but you really cannot make the comparison between Mina and Talim. Zoning characters excel in THIS game. If you put SC6 Mina and SC6 Talim in SC5? Completely different matchup.
 
Fuzzieviking said:
im just kinda mad still that with the title of this thread it's still being entertained. This is hyperbolic. Someone who's bitching because Talim isn't the obvious best character in the game.

She's leagues better than four. period. End of discussion,
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If I was a mod, i would change the title of this to a question. Something like "Is Talim as bad as in Sc4?". it is a discussion worth having. Imo, no sense in playing the blind optimist if there may be actual issues with the character. It does get irritating at times when there's misinformation going around, but it's not like @thinkingofaname doesn't have some solid points.
 
TalimMina said:
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This guy's really, really bad.

Every time NM 6AA'd he coulda used a WNF B and done 1/3rd the guy's life. Or really any tech crouch. And if he wasn't going to crouch, he could back off for the A+B he knew was coming and just punish. Or really just used an A+B. Or... ANYTHING that isn't 6K.
 
ZeroEffect317 said:
If I was a mod, i would change the title of this to a question. Something like "Is Talim as bad as in Sc4?". it is a discussion worth having. Imo, no sense in playing the blind optimist if there may be actual issues with the character. It does get irritating at times when there's misinformation going around, but it's not like @thinkingofaname doesn't have some solid points.
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there are issues with her for sure, but there was almost no reason to use talim in sc4, while she still may have issues staying on top of her opponents I'd say if nothing else she has improved on what she did well. She's only gotten more tools/mixup options to utilize, and her damage has definitely gone up. I think it's pretty safe to say her frames are maybe about the same if not slightly better, with some exceptions.

I think her glaring problems are the abundance of defensive, get off of me options everyone has access too now, with soul charge, reversal edge, and some supers, and the huge buff to gi's. That and for what ever reason you're punished for breaking someones guard and everything you do seems to do waaay less damage after a guard break. Because I also feel like she's way better at breaking guards now, with her being fully capable of breaking on the very first round.

She has issues and weakness, and I think that while a buff to some of them would most definitely be welcome, I also think a few characters are over tuned as well.

I don't know. to me this entire post comes off as more of a whine fest than anything constructive. Top tier is whack anyway, Mid/Upper-Mid is where I'd want her to sit.
 
ZeroEffect317
You keep arguing for Archetype , what kind of archetype are you even talking about? If Talim is meant to be evasive, WTF did they take her aGI options away from her backstance? There is literally no reason to ever be in back stance, because she has less options than normal and far less safe.

Why did they take her 6B+K A/B combo away? That's a signature Talim combo. How you feel if they take NM's 66B loop or Sieg's 3B hold loop away?

Why did they take her low stance combo away? There are characters with stronger lows (Azawel) who also happen to have the longest range. Again why?

NM's 6A+B currently does the "evasive" part better than Talim's entire moveset combined. Not only does that work on everything, it does good damage + knockdown + power up NM. Talim can't even punish it on block unless she is within half a character away from NM, and only with a B,K at most. Why does NM and other characters get invun super while an "evasive" character like Talim gets a super that get stuffed by literally everything that's not a low? Also one of the lowest damage and push the furthest away (yet can not ring out)? Why does Talim has one of the weakest ring out game for a character in-tune with "wind"?

Please don't kid yourself, the dev has 0 clue what to do with Talim, they never did ever since SC2. Or simply don't give a damn.

If they want a evasive/tricky Talim that actually works then apply the following buffs

2/8 B+K GI all vert + throws from start to finish, if repeated twice in a row Talim next stance attack gets hyper power up that does massive damage and + on block, but is beaten by horizontals.

4B+K absorb all hits for the first half the move (like NM's 6A+B) but can be beaten by continuous attacks.

6B+K absorb all highs and give Talim a massive damage buff to the next stance attack if a high is absorbed and + on block, but is beaten by mids.

Return all her aGI options from her backstance.

Back stance B+K aGI all mids (+dodge all lows), turn the follow up into a lethal hit if a hit is dodge/GIed, but is beaten by horizontals.

B+K neutral stance can be entered from any of her stance transition by holding [B+K]

Keep her Super as is, but now it has the same ring out potential as Hilde's full doom combo. Its low damage and slow start will make up as THE ring out move, consistent with priestess of the WIND.

With all these and no other buffs, Talim won't be that strong due to poor range/offense but at least will be extremely annoying to pin down.
 
I don't think you know what the word evasive means. Evasive means dodging, which Talim is good at. aGIs aren't meant for being evasive, they're meant to deflect incoming attacks.
 
Idk, she seem fairly strong to me, just takes a bit more work in neutral is all. The fact that she can cancel out of her RE into ANY stance is huge for her neutral game, since you can force interactions with it. You can RE an approach and simply Wind Leap back to neutral, not only does this heal your guard gauge back up from initiating the RE, you also build meter for absorbing attacks. Don't want to risk eating a 50/50 low/mid mixup? RE that shit. Want a braindead post GI option against people with linear guard breaks? RE that shit. Want to avoid taking a bunch of guard damage from a highly safe string? RE that shit. etc...

She certainly can do damage, and I don't think her frames are bad enough to invalidate her as a character. Yea, AABA and AABB are somewhat fraudulent outside of SC but that's fine since you shouldn't be relying on them that much anyway. I personally don't mind not having any amazing quick lows since I can pour on the guard damage as I please with her.

BT stance is hella good since her BT throws can pose a serious threat even when it looks like you're slightly out of range: her BT A+B is also hella good too since it can LH off CH and will beat out people trying to RE/GI/Armor things. On top of that she has solid ways to get into BT stance with 3B OTG, 4BA, WNC A+G, 3A, and 2B, all of which are at advantage on hit and or are safe on block.

Her guard damage is actually pretty strong considering she can rack up something like 20+ % off of like 2 moves (66A+B ~ WNC B:B) and has multiple solid guard breaks that give good frames.

She has a lot of different combo routes as well for varying situations which I think can be very powerful. Tech traps are somewhat limited in the sense that there aren't any options (to my knowledge) that hit both grounded and catch tech, but the tech traps she does have definitely hurt (CH 6BB ~ WNF BB).

Her wall game is decent with extreme amounts of damage from both soul charge and guard burst. Speaking of which, her guard burst game is nutty, with probably some of if not the highest damage any character can get from a guard burst if we don't include using walls.

Her CE is vary versatile in its function since it 1: Has good range 2: Can tech jump lows 3: Gives back health 4: Can be done from BT 5: Is safe EVEN TO GI's 6: Picks up OTG 7: Can burst guards and still hit. When I look at all that combined I feel like while it is lacking in raw damage, its ability to be applied in a variety of situations more then makes up for it.

Her SC is extremely solid considering she has a true 50/50 in SC WNC AKAA and ABB (the B in ABB can be delayed to avoid GI), fantastic guard breaks with WNS B and AABB, a 60(?) ish damage i14 punish with BKA, and slight utility out of 66AAAB and 66BB.

I would like to see her WNC stance step things better, 2(A+B) become a break attack during SC, and for her BT B and 3A to leave the opponent standing for longer before they crumple; however, I have to say that I think shes pretty solid as she is right now
 
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thinkingofaname said:
ZeroEffect317
You keep arguing for Archetype , what kind of archetype are you even talking about? If Talim is meant to be evasive, WTF did they take her aGI options away from her backstance? There is literally no reason to ever be in back stance, because she has less options than normal and far less safe.

Why did they take her 6B+K A/B combo away? That's a signature Talim combo. How you feel if they take NM's 66B loop or Sieg's 3B hold loop away?

Why did they take her low stance combo away? There are characters with stronger lows (Azawel) who also happen to have the longest range. Again why?

NM's 6A+B currently does the "evasive" part better than Talim's entire moveset combined. Not only does that work on everything, it does good damage + knockdown + power up NM. Talim can't even punish it on block unless she is within half a character away from NM, and only with a B,K at most. Why does NM and other characters get invun super while an "evasive" character like Talim gets a super that get stuffed by literally everything that's not a low? Also one of the lowest damage and push the furthest away (yet can not ring out)? Why does Talim has one of the weakest ring out game for a character in-tune with "wind"?

Please don't kid yourself, the dev has 0 clue what to do with Talim, they never did ever since SC2. Or simply don't give a damn.

If they want a evasive/tricky Talim that actually works then apply the following buffs

2/8 B+K GI all vert + throws from start to finish, if repeated twice in a row Talim next stance attack gets hyper power up that does massive damage and + on block, but is beaten by horizontals.

4B+K absorb all hits for the first half the move (like NM's 6A+B) but can be beaten by continuous attacks.

6B+K absorb all highs and give Talim a massive damage buff to the next stance attack if a high is absorbed and + on block, but is beaten by mids.

Return all her aGI options from her backstance.

Back stance B+K aGI all mids (+dodge all lows), turn the follow up into a lethal hit if a hit is dodge/GIed, but is beaten by horizontals.

B+K neutral stance can be entered from any of her stance transition by holding [B+K]

Keep her Super as is, but now it has the same ring out potential as Hilde's full doom combo. Its low damage and slow start will make up as THE ring out move, consistent with priestess of the WIND.

With all these and no other buffs, Talim won't be that strong due to poor range/offense but at least will be extremely annoying to pin down.
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"Evasive" doesn't mean powering through things like NM 6A+B. "Evasive" doesn't mean auto-GI. "Evasive" means dodging. Spinning around Verticals. Jumping over mids and lows. Jumping over the character completely (which should be fixed as well, imo), Leaping backward out of range of the opponent's short ranged responses. That's what "Evasion" means. You're confusing that with armor...

As for her Archetype, I already told you. She is a character who is meant to get in, pressure you with mixups and frame traps, and be able to dodge the opponent's next attack to continue said pressure.

The only thing I really agree with you on is her RO game. Ringouts defined her strengths in previous games, and was the one actually scary thing about her. Now they removed a lot of that to make Wind Cannon her primary RO tool. And as good as it is, Wind Cannon isn't a move you can just use without setting it up. Not at high level anyway.

She will need buffs, since this game is catered more towards the "Zoning characters". Movement is much safer, so stuff like 66B LH is useless since most of the time they can just backstep guard. She doesn't have a sidestep killing threat. Maybe 3A+B should be that. But the stuff you're suggesting would make her way more complicated than she already is.

Make her Evasive, (aka, "Dodging"), moves better.
- WNS (6B+K6) jumps over a standing opponent up close
- WNC (2_8B+K) is immune to verticals and vertical kicks while active
- WNF (B+K) aGI works more consistently

It'd be cool if you could hold B+K during any transitional move to enter WNF without the leap if you choose. However, doing this would change her combos and damage DRASTICALLY. Keep that in mind too.

Also from BT she doesn't NEED and aGI because you can Reversal Edge from BT. Just press B+G when BT and it will parry whatever they throw at you and you can even choose to cancel afterwards if you're not feeling lucky with the RE guesses.

I think you have some solid points, but then your emotion takes over and you start going into nonsense. Does she need buffs? Yes. But there's a lot more to the character than just throwing armor and retarded damage at her to make her good.
 
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Looking at Talim, I would expect a character who is young, using a weapon such as hers, and based around the wind to be fast, evasive, and annoying as all hell to deal with. Not sure if she entirely fulfills that or not.

Speaking as someone who has no expectation for what Talim was, as I only know her SC2 version, which was rather different. I personally find it rather surprising how unevasive she is in a lot of respects. She's got a lot of high crushes and such built into some of her moves, but quite a few characters have those. 22_88A is pretty much the epitome of being an evasive normal.

Stance-wise though, which I feel is meant to be the highlight of her evasiveness, she really isn't particularly evasive. Her WNS is probably the most evasive thing about her, and it's mostly used for oki or combo extensions. WNL is essentially a low crush read option, but since you are going backwards, it often puts you out of range. The auto GI on her WNF does this as well, actually makes it harder to whiff punish something because it moves her further and further away, and, if they attack twice and get completely GIed, they recover before a WNF-B can even hit them. It's rather silly. She would be better off just low profiled.

WNC in neutral is essentially just a side-step -- a universal option. I would say if you plan to step, you're better off just stepping rather than doing WNC. So you would think the evasiveness would stem from canceling into this move from her normals, but that's not particularly evasive, it's more like a repressure tool. It could just as easily be an animation cancel and it would function about the same.

What surprises me, and I'm not saying this should be a thing, but I'm surprised that during WNC, she doesn't have the ability to... I don't know, duck real low or do a small hop during it to go under highs or over lows. This would extend the animation, and if you just hopped a 2A, maybe you'd just get advantage with no guarantees, but it would give her options and certainly make her more "evasive."

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Sophitia seems to befit the evasive playstyle about as well as Talim at the moment, I would say. Not even by virtue of her aGIs, just in her move design. Talim certainly can hop about more than she can, but it's more visual flare at the moment. At least to me.

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Speed-wise, I was surprised at how... not slow, but certainly not fast she is. She has a lot of slow moves, with very dragged out animations. The multiple hits on her launcher for example just make it ten times easier to recognize the move and punish it. A lot of things she does slow the game down so others can react. One of the reasons I like 44B so much, is that her stance cancel option from it seems to be the fastest and smoothest.

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None of this is to say she is bad or anything, just my observation and impressions as someone experiencing her for the first time. Generally, I think she's alright. This game is loaded with good characters, and I do think at her current "tech level" she is lacking a little bit right now.

But yeah, Talim is a weird character. She's one of, if not the closest ranged character, but she's not the fastest by a long shot, not the strongest, and I don't think the most evasive either. She's just kind of a hodgepodge of everything.
 
Destinizish said:
This guy's really, really bad.

Every time NM 6AA'd he coulda used a WNF B and done 1/3rd the guy's life. Or really any tech crouch. And if he wasn't going to crouch, he could back off for the A+B he knew was coming and just punish. Or really just used an A+B. Or... ANYTHING that isn't 6K.
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Agree but you are totally missing the point.
NM has insane damage and Oki game paired with tons of panic buttons even from KD.
That means to win a round you generally need to win 8-10 guesses opposed to 2-3 there is not even needs to know frames and stuff against light hitters.
 
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