Talim is almost as bad as SC4 ver.

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thinkingofaname said:
Dude, do you even play SC competitively? Wind Canon is launcher punishable, almost all of NM launchers are not, and worst offender being 66BB which is PLUS on block.

Just stop talking please, or use real data to support your claims. Talk in frames and real tournament gameplay, not shit coming out of your ass.
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You should read what you quote more closely.

Yes, I have played Calibur competitively. What I was saying is that the video the guy was talking about was a really dumb representation of Nightmare, just like a video with 3 wind cannons would be a bad representation of Talim. So your reply literally reinforced my point.
 
I’m wanting to retract my initial thoughts about Talim. As I use her more and more and learn the matchups, she has a number of effective tools and mix ups. She can deal some heavy damage off the wall, has some great launchers, and her CE is pretty damn good IMO.

Some characters can absolutely lock her down if you don’t know how to close the distance or stop their pressure. Even then, I find she has more than enough to throw people off rhythm... and that’s really how I use her.

I try to get in close and really throw off the players timing. Small pokes like KB, 4AK, 2A/B, 3K are great for this. That allows me to apply more pressure and mix it up - back turn is incredible. On top of that, her RE cancel is pretty amazing once you learn how to use it.
 
Yeah, she, like pretty much every character in this game, is strong enough to do well.

I am interested to see initial tier placements at some point. Right now, under my current impressions of the game, I can list 8 characters I feel safe saying are better than her. The others I am not sure about.

Everyone is so strong in this game it is hard to definitely say who is the worst character. It's like, I hear Raph players complain but then I look at Raph and I'm like "this character is cheap as fuck." He seems way cheaper than Talim to me, so I'm like, "why are they complaining?" Maybe something I'll discover with time, but right now, he seems to always convert into at least 40 damage on every hit into a knockdown, seems pretty legit to me. And that theme seems to run true with most characters.

Unsurprisingly, and this is likely due to Talim being the only character I know completely, I tend to not be scared of other Talims I face. That being said, I really need to put it on my to-do list to NOT play Talim and learn every character as if it were going to be my main. I feel like that's a necessity in a 3D fighter due to the large variety of moves. Usually I just play my main and learn the other characters vicariously by fighting them. God knows I never sat down and learned how to play Necro in 3S, but I played enough against him to know how to play him when I did pick him. That seems less easy to do here.

--

So yeah, it'll be interesting to see how it panes out. I've hit my first wall I would say, but I'm still making mild progress.
 
Her CE is really bugging me. It's slow AND does poor damage. I have to see what other properties there are on it besides the jump. Was hoping she would have something to punish soul charge and sadly nothing stands out.
 
Her critical edge goes into the jump almost immediately, so it can actually be useful on wakeup. It also picks up from the ground and can be used in combos, is safe on block, and does good guard damage. While also healing her for a trivial amount.

There are worse CEs out there, I've grown to value it more than her soul charge tbh, because at least it will only push them away if it does damage, where as soul charge just resets positions anyway and you have to figure out how to get back in again.

It's really not that bad.
 
Characters better than talim...

Ivy, Nightmare, Sophi, Mina(barely I think she just gives talim a specially hard time), Azwel, Groh, Yoshi, Geralt

Characters talim is better than

Astaroth, Zasalamel, Raph, Cervantes, Xianghua

Characters she goes even with

Maxi, Taki, Tira, Siegfried, Mits, Voldo, Kilik

This of course is my opinion. I just find that, and maybe it's more matchup specific, but that I don't have as hard a time with some characters as I do others, and I know talim isn't the greatest, but she certainly has the tools to deal with a majority of the cast, even ones that are respectably better than her. The part that sucks is how much you have to work to get started. Once you're in she feels great, but it sucks to work hard for 50 damage and then be forced back to guessing when for most characters that's a bb lmao.

Her pressure is intense, sometimes I even crack under it in mirror matches. I just know for a fact that she's not the worst in the cast but this forum seems to be hellbent on proving that she is when she clearly isnt.
 
I don't think too many people are advocating that she's the worst. I personally never dismiss the possibility, but I know I've been advocating the opposite since this thread started. My thoughts remain the same... back-turned Talim is top 5, front-turned Talim is bottom 5. Combined, she is probably somewhere mid to low-mid. However, you never know, people might figure her out and just step all over her face, and while I think even if that turns out to be the case, the tiers aren't such that she wouldn't be able to win. That said, someone has to hit the bottom tier, and while I think it's unlikely it'll be Talim, you never know once all of the information and tech is figured out.

Biggest issues for Talim (for me) remain to be that she has a garbage punishment game, especially from crouch (I wish her FC A+B wasn't so slow and not even a high crush), and she is also very easily punished because most of her moves are designed with very little pushback, because the opposite would hurt her, as she is trying to get in. So when Talim is negative, there is no need to fear not being in range for the punish. Talim on the otherhand, can't reach crap for punishes.

Fuzzieviking said:
Characters better than talim...

Ivy, Nightmare, Sophi, Mina(barely I think she just gives talim a specially hard time), Azwel, Groh, Yoshi, Geralt
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Funnily enough, those are the exact 8 I was thinking of. Though I feel like Sieg is also better than her. Maybe not matchup wise, but in general. I do however lose to Sieg nearly 100% of the time. That matchup confuses me endlessly. (How do I get off the damn ground against him!? I'm just trying to block, but it never stops! I almost never Ukemi, is that something I should be doing versus him or what?)
 
from crouch you can buffer 236b which is nice. but obvs thats more of a whiff punish/ dodging high attacks. I find that I have an easier time dealing with offensive players than defensive players. Because I normally don't have to work as hard to get in, as they are doing it for me.

trying to whiff punish is your best bet. which happens for me more than you might expect.
 
Fuzzieviking said:
Characters better than talim...

Ivy, Nightmare, Sophi, Mina(barely I think she just gives talim a specially hard time), Azwel, Groh, Yoshi, Geralt

Characters talim is better than

Astaroth, Zasalamel, Raph, Cervantes, Xianghua

Characters she goes even with

Maxi, Taki, Tira, Siegfried, Mits, Voldo, Kilik

This of course is my opinion. I just find that, and maybe it's more matchup specific, but that I don't have as hard a time with some characters as I do others, and I know talim isn't the greatest, but she certainly has the tools to deal with a majority of the cast, even ones that are respectably better than her. The part that sucks is how much you have to work to get started. Once you're in she feels great, but it sucks to work hard for 50 damage and then be forced back to guessing when for most characters that's a bb lmao.

Her pressure is intense, sometimes I even crack under it in mirror matches. I just know for a fact that she's not the worst in the cast but this forum seems to be hellbent on proving that she is when she clearly isnt.
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Zas is absolutely better. Unless there was a patch yesterday that nerfed the shit out of him. Xianghua I believe is being highly slept on as well as Cervantes. Mina I think could be top 3 in the game.
 
ZeroEffect317 said:
Zas is absolutely better. Unless there was a patch yesterday that nerfed the shit out of him. Xianghua I believe is being highly slept on as well as Cervantes. Mina I think could be top 3 in the game.
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you think so? I have not had a problem with any of those three. Cervantes seems so slow, xianghua has to work harder than we do for damage and that's saying something. Maybe it's lack of exposure, because I think we've talked about this before, but I've only found zas to be superior in ringing people out.

a close friend of mine mains mina so I guess I've just fought her enough times to feel like I'm getting somewhere, I may just be in my friend's head.

But yeah, I stand firm on Cerv and X.
 
Fuzzieviking said:
you think so? I have not had a problem with any of those three. Cervantes seems so slow, xianghua has to work harder than we do for damage and that's saying something. Maybe it's lack of exposure, because I think we've talked about this before, but I've only found zas to be superior in ringing people out.

a close friend of mine mains mina so I guess I've just fought her enough times to feel like I'm getting somewhere, I may just be in my friend's head.

But yeah, I stand firm on Cerv and X.
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Yeah, I'm of the opinion to disregard player skill entirely and focus on just looking at tools here.

Zasalamel has range, damage, RO ability, one of the best CEs in the game, Curses give him 50/50s that leads into a 2nd 50/50 on block, (though this is when he's stacked all 3). Soul Charge gives him the Blackhole pull and his 1A becomes an obnoxious low. His fastest buttons are just as fast as Talims.

Xianghua has again, range, better pokes that are actually Natural Combo, better safety, Possibly the fastest CE in the game at i11 or 12. Decent lows in 3A, 1K, 6BA, and FC 3A. Really strong Lethal Hits with reliable conditions, (her aGIs lethal when they work). Her soul Charge is fantastic, (AABB is tons of dmg on CH, 6KBB great combo extender + setup, 66KK and 66K,kA mixup, etc). Safe Launchers. She's not the heaviest hitter without bar, but my god, she has excellent neutral game reward.

Mina has essentially everything. I can't think of one area on the screen where she struggles. She hits hard in combos, she is one of the best, if not the best, at guard damage. Fantastic oki. Great ranged tools with no duckable strings or other gaps. Soul Charge is amazing. Knockdown low, everything is a break attack. Her CE is one of the faster ones I think. Her A+B is high damage. In close, she has an i12 K and 2A, and also an i12 KND mid in Rising K. 4A and B+K are great get outta jail tools. Her aGIs are underrated. In fact, the ONLY weakness I can see she has right now, is when she whiffs something, she's open for a while.

All that said, I think Talim is decent at a lot of little things, but Namco played the safer side when designing her. She's honestly almost there in terms of being a strong character. But for the time being, I can't see how she's better than any of those characters listed.
 
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Mina has weaknesses. But she has amazing matchups. She actually struggles against point blank stepping because all her tracking moves hit high and low. But she’s a great character, although I find her a bit boring.

Zas is a GREAT character. Far better overall than Talim.

I don’t think Talim is bad so much as the rest of the cast is really pushed.
 
D_Matt_Ma said:
Mina has weaknesses. But she has amazing matchups. She actually struggles against point blank stepping because all her tracking moves hit high and low. But she’s a great character, although I find her a bit boring.

Zas is a GREAT character. Far better overall than Talim.

I don’t think Talim is bad so much as the rest of the cast is really pushed.
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I mean Mina can 2A, 2K, iFC 1K, FC 3AK, 44K, probably other stuff I'm missing. Far as I know all that stuff beats step. If you just mean losing to step 2G, then you can just adjust your timing.
EDIT: 3A... how could I forget 3A, lol.

I think the rest of the cast isn't Talim's issue as much as just core mechanics. I also don't think Talim is garbage, just a bit incomplete. With a handful of changes she could be strong.
 
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ZeroEffect317 said:
I mean Mina can 2A, 2K, iFC 1K, FC 3AK, 44K, probably other stuff I'm missing. Far as I know all that stuff beats step. If you just mean losing to step 2G, then you can just adjust your timing.
EDIT: 3A... how could I forget 3A, lol.

I think the rest of the cast isn't Talim's issue as much as just core mechanics. I also don't think Talim is garbage, just a bit incomplete. With a handful of changes she could be strong.
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All I ask for is WNC to actually dodge, and SC 2A+B to also be a guard break
 
ZeroEffect317 said:
Yeah, I'm of the opinion to disregard player skill entirely and focus on just looking at tools here.
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AFTER SEEING SO MANY PEOPLE BASE THEIR TIER LISTS ON PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OR TOURNAMENT RESULTS, I FIGURED I WAS IN THE MINORITY FOR THINKING ABOUT IT IN TERMS OF PURE THEORY.
 
MONEYMUFFINS said:
AFTER SEEING SO MANY PEOPLE BASE THEIR TIER LISTS ON PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OR TOURNAMENT RESULTS, I FIGURED I WAS IN THE MINORITY FOR THINKING ABOUT IT IN TERMS OF PURE THEORY.
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well I guess it is always going to be colored by personal experience if you don't play certain characters. With all of that being said, we can lay everyone's tools out on the table and make them sound broken, but I've not had any issue with the likes of zasalamel, and the only issue I used to have was post gi xianghua.
 
Fuzzieviking said:
well I guess it is always going to be colored by personal experience if you don't play certain characters. With all of that being said, we can lay everyone's tools out on the table and make them sound broken, but I've not had any issue with the likes of zasalamel, and the only issue I used to have was post gi xianghua.
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There's matchups to consider too. Maybe Talim does fine against those characters. I remember in SC4, Talim vs Amy wasn't that bad a matchup for Talim, despite both characters being on the opposite ends of the tier list, lol.
 
ZeroEffect317 said:
There's matchups to consider too. Maybe Talim does fine against those characters. I remember in SC4, Talim vs Amy wasn't that bad a matchup for Talim, despite both characters being on the opposite ends of the tier list, lol.
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Which is also fair.

I think it's hard to make claims because most characters are good. I feel bad for astaroth it's hard when you're one of the worst characters and one of the debatably worst characters is your worst matchup so you look even worse.

To me it seems like people are looking for reasons why talim is bad as opposed to why she is viable. I guess I probably should just stay off this thread but it's not really constructive it feels more like people just drowning in their salt because Talim doesn't have Ivy's level of viability.


all of these characters are good enough to be played imo, It's not soul calibur 4...
 
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