DanteSC3
[14] Master
I think you’re both being overcritical with your analysis of what I’m saying, if I’m being completely honest.
The original premise of “new timeline” that I am arguing against at this topic’s inception is “a timeline that does not end up back where we were in SoulCalibur V because SoulCalibur V is an unmitigated disaster and we should never return to that point in time no matter what, and starting from the beginning lets us retell that story without getting to that point again”, to put Nyte’s point of view in the most positive terms. That is the core of my disagreement, that I do not believe that is what we are doing.
As just seen a few posts back of mine here, I am not disputing that we have minor differences in place, ones that make the narrative more cohesive, with hindsight being 20/20, as I have said earlier in this thread, that SoulCalibur VI is the SoulCalibur that we would have gotten back on Dreamcast if they had Zasalamel’s ability to receive memories from the future. It was likely the best choice that they could have gone with, instead of trying to remake/rebuild SoulCalibur V, with the reputation that it had, being the most recent release.
Which is why I feel like we will get another breather game in SoulCalibur VII, covering the plots of SoulCalibur II-IV, before giving SoulCalibur V another go, this time without a natural disaster ruining the end result, hopefully, and done in a way, now that they should know what it would entail, that will not alienate old fans in haphazard decisions like dropping characters entirely or replacing them with inadequately explained next-generation folks.
I do, contrary to at least some of your thoughts, continue to believe that we are basically going to tell the same story albeit with new details added and with a better centralized canon. I am not yet convinced that we are getting a brand new story, and I won’t be until it happens. I am not nor will I deny a truly new story is “not good enough” to be a change, a true divergence, one that impacts the story at large. I do not acknowledge rearranged existing data as a divergence, nor does that in itself mean a “new timeline”.
My hangup with the term mostly stems from the idea that it implies that we aren’t repeating history, when we clearly are, at least for right now. The point that clinches an alternate history will be when Zasalamel and/or Cassandra takes an action that sets us on a new course, but not before this does it constitute a paradigm shift.
It does not have to be point-for-point identical to be a retelling of the same story in the same timeline. It’s why I hated the term before the game even came out, because it’s poorly thought out and isn’t accurately representing what we are doing, not until the point happens where we really do change history, if it comes to that.
You claim I have no objective that constitutes a new timeline and can constantly move the goalposts, but no, that’s not my position and it never was. I’ve even provided examples as to what would actually have been things they could have done to actually change history in a meaningful way.
Cassandra already missed her first opportunity, to either prevent Rothion and Sophitia from getting together and having Pyrrha, maybe stealing Rothion for herself, or by less catty means, offer to be a surrogate mother for Sophitia’s children, as if Pyrrha and Patroklos were born from Cassandra instead of Sophitia, it would resolve the dilemma pretty easily. But no, useless Cassandra just stood by and watched history repeat itself when she had the ability to intervene. I’m not sure what she plans to do or if she will just be too hesitant to take any risks until it’s too late.
Zasalamel has not necessarily had a chance yet, but I have supposed that he may interrupt the confrontation between Raphael and Siegfried come SoulCalibur II events. Should that happen, then Zasalamel attempts his new plan that actually makes for some real change in the world, also preventing Raphael and Amy from coming under Soul Edge’s influence, at the very least, that’s one possibility that may lead to a new chain of events. If that happens, the we’ll definitely be on a new course.
These are just two examples, things that we have based on what’s been given to us, but unfortunately for everyone else, their stories at present are only set up to go the exact same way that they went before. They don’t know we have done this once before, so they have no reason to do anything differently. We need one of our identified interlopers to actually do something in order to facilitate change.
It didn’t pan out, for whatever reason, but the Tomb Raider Anniversary series that could have been would be a fine example of a “reboot” that told the exact same story but slightly differently because we had new technology, greater means to tell a story with more detail, and some experience and hindsight to know what works and what doesn’t. It was the story of Tomb Raider 1 told very faithfully and yet expanded to give the characters more life and the world more facets and cohesiveness. It’s still a mistake in my eyes that they did that awful hard reboot that literally nobody asked for that ruined Lara Croft forever and I believe she’s just done at this point, will never return to her previous glory, and I would even hazard a guess that we might not actually see another Tomb Raider game.
But back on SoulCalibur, for that is what we are discussing, I don’t understand the purpose of foreshadowing events up to and including SoulCalibur V if they don’t plan on actually revisiting those events in the future. Otherwise, it’s just a form of trolling for folks like myself who do believe that SoulCalibur V deserves a second chance. If that truly was the goal, to never reach that “mistake” again, then there would be no references or allusions to it in the game. And yet there are. They could have not waited until SoulCalibur VII to make some real changes in the narrative, such as Kilik actually failing to maintain his dark side and becoming the new Nightmare, that could have been interesting. But no, we just rehashed SoulCalibur and set up SoulCalibur II. I don’t know what else I’m supposed to believe.
Let’s analyze the recent Soul Chronicles that apparently clinch our changing history for the future and I’ll explain why none of it is convincing to me:
Amy: Mirrors Raphael’s Soul Chronicle, offering Amy’s point of view on events we had already seen. Expanded upon Azwel’s epilogue in Raphael’s final chapter and confirmed it is Azwel that is responsible for Amy’s cursed future where she will lose herself and become Viola. Sets up Amy’s story for SoulCalibur II, going the same way it would have originally, her following Raphael to save him from himself when he confronts Soul Edge. New detail added in that she will have an as for now unknown identity male companion, who most likely is or has some connection to Z.W.E.I., to establish more SoulCalibur V lore. Otherwise, who else would he be?
Cassandra: Ostensibly nothing is amiss at first glance. Basic setup of Cassandra for SoulCalibur II with some more lore building around the Alexandra family with us seeing the bakery, meeting Lucius, and seeing the wedding of Sophitia and Rothion, and Sophitia is pregnant with Pyrrha. BUT WAIT, EPIC PLOT TWIST!! Before this story, Cassandra was visited by her future self, drifting through Astral Chaos, and somehow managed to find herself in the past. Future Cassandra did her best in her dilapidated state to convey her message, but ditzy Kid Cassandra is slow on the uptake, doesn’t even realize it’s herself from the future who is talking to her, finally maybe gets the message, but because this happened before the story we just saw, we know that Cassandra thus far is failing to actually take her future self’s advice, and her goal remains “Save Sophitia!” just as it normally was. Her having knowledge of the future means nothing if she does nothing with it, which she’s failing at thus far.
Hilde: It set up Hilde’s character, gave her backstory, associated her with Grøh and the Aval Organization, for whatever reason attempted to make us believe that Wilhelm might be Z.W.E.I., oh, and cousin marriage. Patroklos and Pyrrha aren’t the only incest in this franchise! Still, Hilde is as she was, nothing’s changed, she’ll still do what she did before, unless given external stimulus.
Feel free to point out whatever it is that I missed, but I don’t see it. Setsuka’s story will be her origin and set up her revenge plot. Hwang’s story will be like Amy’s was to Raphael’s and be the other side of Seong Mi-na’s story and hopefully give us a reason to keep Hwang around for the sequel. Neither of them have cause or ability to change history, as they are in that same camp of unaware the future even exists.
I would believe in the characters’ abilities to carve their own fates if they actually managed to do so. But no one did, not even Cassandra or Zasalamel, not yet anyway. SoulCalibur VII is free to change, it might, it might not. But SoulCalibur VI is determined not to change. That’s just how it’s been so far and there’s no reason to suspect anything in the rest of however many more characters we will get in the rest of SoulCalibur VI’s time that will be any real change. They’ll just be vague and/or keep setting up SoulCalibur II. And with all the setup for SoulCalibur II, it’s going to be rough if they pull out the rug and SoulCalibur VII doesn’t have SoulCalibur II in it.
The original premise of “new timeline” that I am arguing against at this topic’s inception is “a timeline that does not end up back where we were in SoulCalibur V because SoulCalibur V is an unmitigated disaster and we should never return to that point in time no matter what, and starting from the beginning lets us retell that story without getting to that point again”, to put Nyte’s point of view in the most positive terms. That is the core of my disagreement, that I do not believe that is what we are doing.
As just seen a few posts back of mine here, I am not disputing that we have minor differences in place, ones that make the narrative more cohesive, with hindsight being 20/20, as I have said earlier in this thread, that SoulCalibur VI is the SoulCalibur that we would have gotten back on Dreamcast if they had Zasalamel’s ability to receive memories from the future. It was likely the best choice that they could have gone with, instead of trying to remake/rebuild SoulCalibur V, with the reputation that it had, being the most recent release.
Which is why I feel like we will get another breather game in SoulCalibur VII, covering the plots of SoulCalibur II-IV, before giving SoulCalibur V another go, this time without a natural disaster ruining the end result, hopefully, and done in a way, now that they should know what it would entail, that will not alienate old fans in haphazard decisions like dropping characters entirely or replacing them with inadequately explained next-generation folks.
I do, contrary to at least some of your thoughts, continue to believe that we are basically going to tell the same story albeit with new details added and with a better centralized canon. I am not yet convinced that we are getting a brand new story, and I won’t be until it happens. I am not nor will I deny a truly new story is “not good enough” to be a change, a true divergence, one that impacts the story at large. I do not acknowledge rearranged existing data as a divergence, nor does that in itself mean a “new timeline”.
My hangup with the term mostly stems from the idea that it implies that we aren’t repeating history, when we clearly are, at least for right now. The point that clinches an alternate history will be when Zasalamel and/or Cassandra takes an action that sets us on a new course, but not before this does it constitute a paradigm shift.
It does not have to be point-for-point identical to be a retelling of the same story in the same timeline. It’s why I hated the term before the game even came out, because it’s poorly thought out and isn’t accurately representing what we are doing, not until the point happens where we really do change history, if it comes to that.
You claim I have no objective that constitutes a new timeline and can constantly move the goalposts, but no, that’s not my position and it never was. I’ve even provided examples as to what would actually have been things they could have done to actually change history in a meaningful way.
Cassandra already missed her first opportunity, to either prevent Rothion and Sophitia from getting together and having Pyrrha, maybe stealing Rothion for herself, or by less catty means, offer to be a surrogate mother for Sophitia’s children, as if Pyrrha and Patroklos were born from Cassandra instead of Sophitia, it would resolve the dilemma pretty easily. But no, useless Cassandra just stood by and watched history repeat itself when she had the ability to intervene. I’m not sure what she plans to do or if she will just be too hesitant to take any risks until it’s too late.
Zasalamel has not necessarily had a chance yet, but I have supposed that he may interrupt the confrontation between Raphael and Siegfried come SoulCalibur II events. Should that happen, then Zasalamel attempts his new plan that actually makes for some real change in the world, also preventing Raphael and Amy from coming under Soul Edge’s influence, at the very least, that’s one possibility that may lead to a new chain of events. If that happens, the we’ll definitely be on a new course.
These are just two examples, things that we have based on what’s been given to us, but unfortunately for everyone else, their stories at present are only set up to go the exact same way that they went before. They don’t know we have done this once before, so they have no reason to do anything differently. We need one of our identified interlopers to actually do something in order to facilitate change.
It didn’t pan out, for whatever reason, but the Tomb Raider Anniversary series that could have been would be a fine example of a “reboot” that told the exact same story but slightly differently because we had new technology, greater means to tell a story with more detail, and some experience and hindsight to know what works and what doesn’t. It was the story of Tomb Raider 1 told very faithfully and yet expanded to give the characters more life and the world more facets and cohesiveness. It’s still a mistake in my eyes that they did that awful hard reboot that literally nobody asked for that ruined Lara Croft forever and I believe she’s just done at this point, will never return to her previous glory, and I would even hazard a guess that we might not actually see another Tomb Raider game.
But back on SoulCalibur, for that is what we are discussing, I don’t understand the purpose of foreshadowing events up to and including SoulCalibur V if they don’t plan on actually revisiting those events in the future. Otherwise, it’s just a form of trolling for folks like myself who do believe that SoulCalibur V deserves a second chance. If that truly was the goal, to never reach that “mistake” again, then there would be no references or allusions to it in the game. And yet there are. They could have not waited until SoulCalibur VII to make some real changes in the narrative, such as Kilik actually failing to maintain his dark side and becoming the new Nightmare, that could have been interesting. But no, we just rehashed SoulCalibur and set up SoulCalibur II. I don’t know what else I’m supposed to believe.
Let’s analyze the recent Soul Chronicles that apparently clinch our changing history for the future and I’ll explain why none of it is convincing to me:
Amy: Mirrors Raphael’s Soul Chronicle, offering Amy’s point of view on events we had already seen. Expanded upon Azwel’s epilogue in Raphael’s final chapter and confirmed it is Azwel that is responsible for Amy’s cursed future where she will lose herself and become Viola. Sets up Amy’s story for SoulCalibur II, going the same way it would have originally, her following Raphael to save him from himself when he confronts Soul Edge. New detail added in that she will have an as for now unknown identity male companion, who most likely is or has some connection to Z.W.E.I., to establish more SoulCalibur V lore. Otherwise, who else would he be?
Cassandra: Ostensibly nothing is amiss at first glance. Basic setup of Cassandra for SoulCalibur II with some more lore building around the Alexandra family with us seeing the bakery, meeting Lucius, and seeing the wedding of Sophitia and Rothion, and Sophitia is pregnant with Pyrrha. BUT WAIT, EPIC PLOT TWIST!! Before this story, Cassandra was visited by her future self, drifting through Astral Chaos, and somehow managed to find herself in the past. Future Cassandra did her best in her dilapidated state to convey her message, but ditzy Kid Cassandra is slow on the uptake, doesn’t even realize it’s herself from the future who is talking to her, finally maybe gets the message, but because this happened before the story we just saw, we know that Cassandra thus far is failing to actually take her future self’s advice, and her goal remains “Save Sophitia!” just as it normally was. Her having knowledge of the future means nothing if she does nothing with it, which she’s failing at thus far.
Hilde: It set up Hilde’s character, gave her backstory, associated her with Grøh and the Aval Organization, for whatever reason attempted to make us believe that Wilhelm might be Z.W.E.I., oh, and cousin marriage. Patroklos and Pyrrha aren’t the only incest in this franchise! Still, Hilde is as she was, nothing’s changed, she’ll still do what she did before, unless given external stimulus.
Feel free to point out whatever it is that I missed, but I don’t see it. Setsuka’s story will be her origin and set up her revenge plot. Hwang’s story will be like Amy’s was to Raphael’s and be the other side of Seong Mi-na’s story and hopefully give us a reason to keep Hwang around for the sequel. Neither of them have cause or ability to change history, as they are in that same camp of unaware the future even exists.
I would believe in the characters’ abilities to carve their own fates if they actually managed to do so. But no one did, not even Cassandra or Zasalamel, not yet anyway. SoulCalibur VII is free to change, it might, it might not. But SoulCalibur VI is determined not to change. That’s just how it’s been so far and there’s no reason to suspect anything in the rest of however many more characters we will get in the rest of SoulCalibur VI’s time that will be any real change. They’ll just be vague and/or keep setting up SoulCalibur II. And with all the setup for SoulCalibur II, it’s going to be rough if they pull out the rug and SoulCalibur VII doesn’t have SoulCalibur II in it.