A good counter after AA's and BB's

[Eiji]

Hi all,

I'm pretty new to these forums, been reading bits and pieces back on the old board and I have a question...

What is a good counter attack/punishing move for Kilik to use against the usual poke type attacks, namely Raph's after blocking them?

I can GI a small percentage of them and move in from there, but if the opponent decides to change their timing and throw in some mix up's, I sometimes just resort to holding guard.

Any input appreciated!

 

[ShenOu]

Kilik isn't built for punishment, in fact he isn't an easy character to play beyond the whole "Let's spam moves!" stage.

I'd advice you to keep your punishment options limited to 3 (this applies to all characters)
Light punisher, Standard Punish and Heavy Punisher.

For Kilik
Light - 46B/6AA depending on range
Standard - 66B
Heavy - 3kB

You also have to keep one or two moves at the back of your head for whiff punishing.
For Kilik, these would be 4 or 22B. Application of whiff punishers are kinda obvious, provided you know what's whiffing?

As for what type of punishment to use, when you block a move (hence forth known as 3B.. Just an example, easier to type than "that move). Try 66B first, Its the safest option, and does decent damage. Three scenarios stem out from here.

1. If its not fast enough to punish 3B, keep that in mind. The next time you block 3B, try 46B. If that STILL doesn't punish. Kilik can't punish 3B, you now know this. So the next time the opponent does 3B, you can force a mixup when you block 3B. Like maybe. 2K/Throw and 66B.

2. It CAN punish 66B. So now you know it's bad enough on block for a 66B. The next time you can block 3B, you can try 3kB. If it hits, it hits. If not. Depending on your outcome, remember which punishment option is better to punish 3B and use it accordingly.

3. When you try to 66B your opponent's 3B. You get hit by hit 2nd attack on counter hit! That's not supposed to happen! Well, in this scenario, it means that the opponent's 3B is either + on block, or that it only has a small disadvantage on hit. How do you confirm this?
When you block 3B again, you can take the risk to 6AA or 46B. If those counterhit your opponent's 3B, that means that the advantage/disadvantage of 3B on block isn't large/small enough for the opponent to beat out Kilik's 46B. You can use this to prevent them from taking the offense when you block their 3B, and forces your opponent to BLOCK. Of which you can mixup and put a bit of hurt on him. If your 46B still doesn't beat out his next move, then the frames of 3B on block is really too much for Kilik to handle. You'd have to find another way to deal with his 3B. Like stepping or GI-ing. Simply punishing it off a block is not possible.

I hope this wasn't too complicated to understand XD Let me know if you don't get any part of it.

 

[Eiji]

Nah, not TOO complicated.

You've basically outlined what I'd normally (in SC3) do, but it felt like in SC3, Kilik just had that extra edge as opposed to SC4, or at least I must of figured it out quicker.

What I'd normally side-step seems to track to well now and 66B feels a little slower and like it's lost some priority.

Having said that though, I've found if forced to block and opponent is mid-range to Kilik, the standard AA poke back at them seems to work well, but does minimal damage when it hits.

I'll keep trying some different things, but if anyone finds a move that is guaranteed after blocking Raph's BB, I'm all ears!

 

[ShenOu]

In the case of Raph's BB. 2nd hit CANNOT be stepped. 100% tracking.
It also can't be punished by Kilik.. its -12. Kilik's fastest move is i13.

Don't know if you've noticed, but Step in the game has changed to be more like VF5. Buffering is also tighter now, might be the source of your troubles.

 

[NeoOutlaw]

Raphs BB best bet is to GI it. That shit is safe and unstepable. as far as normally with characters using standard A and B strings you dodge it and then counter. Most standing A's are high and standing B's are mid so avoid and then hit him back

 

[Rei_Shao_Khan]

-12 is good to know. That means that Kilik can easy get a 2A or a 3A off before Raph can connect with any move.

I presonally find that Kilik's evasion moves are always the most effective against Raph. Now that his BB is unsteppable, I think it is more important to use them against if you can predict it.

 

[Eiji]

In the case of Raph's BB. 2nd hit CANNOT be stepped. 100% tracking.
It also can't be punished by Kilik.. its -12. Kilik's fastest move is i13.

Don't know if you've noticed, but Step in the game has changed to be more like VF5. Buffering is also tighter now, might be the source of your troubles.

Thanks ShenOu. That's what I needed to know... I don't like the sound of it, but I'll work around it.

Speaking of which, I think Kilik's 1B hits when Raph is on his first B in BB... Not sure if thats just a standard CH because I was doing it a touch faster, but it kinda looked like the tiny auto side-step in the 1B gets out of Raph's first B? Someone want to confirm it?

 

[ShenOu]

Yep, that sidestep is really good for stepping most moves.
With the exception of some like Raphael's 2nd hit in BB. Which has 100% tracking.
Its also pretty much impossible to sidestep the 2nd hit of Asura. Which has godly tracking as well.

Try this.
Let's say you hit someone with 1K.
Immediately step.
Do you step your opponent's vertical?

If you do, try again with 1B, 33A or 4A.
Now do the same for any move that is negative on hit or on block. Up until around -8.

Considering CH 1B is 65-ish damage (Combo into CH 66KKB, 6AAA). Learning how to step with it is an extremely useful too.

 

[BLDave]

Yep, that sidestep is really good for stepping most moves.
With the exception of some like Raphael's 2nd hit in BB. Which has 100% tracking.

I dont think this is right. Ive tested Raphs BB and i know that you can step the second B rather easily. I believe it to be the first B that has the tracking on it. Im not sure that you have time to block the first be and step the second, however if the first B whiffs, you can EASILY step the second B. You dont even have to use a true step, you can 8wr around it even. I dont think it has ANY tracking whatsoever.

Test it before you tell me I'm wrong, which i might be. (Not directed at anyone in particular, i just hate it when people go, 'NOPE' and dont even test it.)

 

[ShadowFox]

If you're talking about AA/BB's on block then you might want to just retreat and see what the opponent does first and then evaluate your options afterwards.

But hey I like to block a lot. lol

 

[BLDave]

If you're talking about AA/BB's on block then you might want to just retreat and see what the opponent does first and then evaluate your options afterwards.

But hey I like to block a lot. lol

Playing it safe is always a good call, but if you back off everytime you block someones BB (especially Raphs) then you arent ever going to be on the offensive.

Sure you can space and poke, which is a great idea when used correctly, but sometimes its of STRONG benifit to push when you have advantage. Kilik has a SUPER strong game when he's at mid range and spaces himself at the very TIP of his opponents range. It makes him able to take advantage of his own range, the enemy is still going to freely attack because they are in range, and it lets him duck JUST out of range with things like WS B, 1B, FC 1B ect.

 

[Eiji]

I dont think this is right. Ive tested Raphs BB and i know that you can step the second B rather easily. I believe it to be the first B that has the tracking on it. Im not sure that you have time to block the first be and step the second, however if the first B whiffs, you can EASILY step the second B. You dont even have to use a true step, you can 8wr around it even. I dont think it has ANY tracking whatsoever.

Test it before you tell me I'm wrong, which i might be. (Not directed at anyone in particular, i just hate it when people go, 'NOPE' and dont even test it.)

When you tested this, did you block the first B then side step the 2nd? Or did you let the first B whiff, then step the 2nd?

I was testing in the situation of blocking the first and stepping the second. If you can do that, which way were you stepping? Towards or away from the screen with Kilik on 1P side. And how quickly must you do it?

 

[BLDave]

When you tested this, did you block the first B then side step the 2nd? Or did you let the first B whiff, then step the 2nd?

I was testing in the situation of blocking the first and stepping the second. If you can do that, which way were you stepping? Towards or away from the screen with Kilik on 1P side. And how quickly must you do it?

Tested and re tested. the first B is the one with the tracking. If the first B whiffs, you can step the 2nd B in any direction, and the timing is VERY loose. Its not possible to step it on block, due to blockstun.

this means, learn the range of raphs BB, hover outside the range of the first B and step the second B. i Knew i wasnt crazy :P

 

[Rei_Shao_Khan]

Good to know, but I'll admit that I am not a huge fan of advice that depends on a move wiffing. It is still good to know that only the first B tracks. I didn't know that. Staying out of range goes almost without being said, but that also implies that a Raph is going to do BB when it will wiff.

I'll take advantage of that if when and if I can, but that doesn't sound too dependable, especially since most characters will try to rush Kilik.

Knowing the -12 on block is big though. I will admit that I backed off after blocking it making it hard to counter because I overestimated it. Kilik actually has very nice options for attacking after blocking that. I will definetely take advantage of that in my game. Thanks.

 

[Eiji]

Tested and re tested. the first B is the one with the tracking. If the first B whiffs, you can step the 2nd B in any direction, and the timing is VERY loose. Its not possible to step it on block, due to blockstun.

this means, learn the range of raphs BB, hover outside the range of the first B and step the second B. i Knew i wasnt crazy :P

Good stuff BLDave.

Its time to get practicing to get out of the way of that annoying BB.

 

[Eiji]

Kilik actually has very nice options for attacking after blocking that. I will definetely take advantage of that in my game. Thanks.

What are your options? I normally aim low or wait for a GI whiff (good old BB, GI when they anticipate you coming back with an attack) and smash my way through from there. I guess it heavily depends on the style the opponent plays, but if there was something that always spelled out guaranteed damage that would make life hella easy.

 

[Rei_Shao_Khan]

No guaranteed damage. Kilik doesn't have a i12 move, but but that means that Kilik can attack with a slower move in response to BB then I would have tried prior to hearing that message.

I'll admit that I generally go low afterwards, but I wouldn't have guessed that he could get like a 3A off before Raph can really do anything. More than anything it just meant that it is a chance for Kilik to take the offense.

 

[BLDave]

Good to know, but I'll admit that I am not a huge fan of advice that depends on a move wiffing. It is still good to know that only the first B tracks. I didn't know that. Staying out of range goes almost without being said, but that also implies that a Raph is going to do BB when it will wiff.

I'll take advantage of that if when and if I can, but that doesn't sound too dependable, especially since most characters will try to rush Kilik.

Knowing the -12 on block is big though. I will admit that I backed off after blocking it making it hard to counter because I overestimated it. Kilik actually has very nice options for attacking after blocking that. I will definetely take advantage of that in my game. Thanks.

baiting a whiff can mean lots of damage. If the first B whiffs, 1B , 66KKB, 6AAA

Raph will throw outBB at that range too, because he knows the second B has got range. Even great raph players crutch that BB.

Also keep in mind it's also -12 on hit too. Don't be afraid of raph, not to say he isnt good, but hesitating makes him so much stronger