Tiamat
[11] Champion
I will add to this when I see matchup info. Feel free to make an individual thread for any mathcup you wish to discuss. I will link to the threads from here once they are made.
punish heirarchy
FC A < FC 3B/WR KK < 4BA < 66B < WR B (only stronger than 4BA is you use meter)
K/AA/2A < BB < 4BA < 66B < 3B (3B is only stronger than 4BA if you use meter)
Generic Punishes:
basic 2K/1K are generally punishable only by FC A, or 6KK if close enough
basic running slide low kick generally punishable by WR B
vs Aeon
1A - FC 3B (only if close), 6BBB (stable but only first hit hits)
1K - 4BA
11K (sweep) - WR B
11B (+4 on hit low) - FC A
66K - 4BA
BBB - can step 2nd hit both sides and 3rd hit can be stepped left (clockwise)
3B - K/6B only if close
6BB (m,h) - duck and punish 2nd hit
6B BE - can DP the last hit, just guard for 3B, or you can just step it (recommended)
22AB (2nd hit is delayable) - 4BA
CE - 4BA/66B/3B (it looks like it would be a multi hit CE but its not)
Aeon 66A will generally stuff all movement because it is a long range A attack. You can't punish it on block (-12) so go for a mixup, guage damage, or backstep to get some more space between you. If you attack after 66A your B and 4B will trade but it will be highly unfavorable and not recommended. Only AA, 2A, K, 2K, and 6KK will stuff a repeat on hit.
His 4B+K is also noteworthy as it TCs and can sometimes even go under mids depending on timing. You cannot punish it on guard. He has a 4B+Kg that makes him fall on the ground after doing the attack. This one can be punished with 3B, 44B, or CE
his 1B BE is quick, damaging mid with + on guard but it does not track and has no range so unless he's right in your face he can't use it, and even then if you predict it you will generally be able to make it whiff with a sidestep or backstep
his 11A, 66B, and 8B+K go to his Sand Winger stance. From this stance he only has a K followup unless he does BE fireball or BE fireball cancel. All are punishable by a sidestep to a 3B, though you'll get air hit if he does the BEs and you attack too quickly.
if he is doing 66B without the followup you can get 66B/3B. SW K recovers so low you can't 4BA or 66B him when it misses easily. do 3B/44B/22B. if close enough you can get 66B after blocking it but you must be very close or you'll whiff. CE is free of course
vs Algol (mirror)
6AAB - 4BA. you can also duck the 2nd hit and WR B
3AA - AA/6B (-14)
4AB - 4BA (if in range) or CE
4BA - 4BA/66B/3B
44AA - 66B
33ABK - 1st his is safe but if he goes to 2nd hit you can AA him out of it
1A - 4BA
11K/77K - 4BA
1K - 4BA
QI K - 3B (this forces you into a standing guard even though it is a low....how odd...)
1B - AA (only if close)
3BB - AA/6B (-14)
WR B - AA/6B (-14)
623B - 66B/3B
2B+KB - DP the bubble, bubble will combo with the DP for 54 dmg. can't punish 2B+K alone on block though. pyrrha can stab 2B+K (no bubble) but she'll get a tip hit so no stun/JF
CE - 66B (if in range) or CE him back. 2B+KB is punishable on guard by AA/6B if close enough
vs Astaroth
Discussion Thread
6K blocked = free AA/2A/K
4KK = FC A
1KA = free 4BA after 1st hit whether he does A followup or not
2B+K (1B in SC4) = free 4BA/FC 8B/66B if in range. FC 8B seems to have a bit more range than 4BA here. if you block it from far out you can only punish with CE
To punish Bullrush BE, just DP the second hit. If you block it close you can step left (clockwise) to avoid it but if you block it from far you can't step it.
66AB/66A(B) - step either way to avoid the 2nd hit and punish
his 6K is only +2 on hit now so 2A will stuff all his mids. he can only beat you with backstep/crouch grab/jump
From bullrush BE if he follows up with 2A it will hit ground and catch side techs. if you back tech you can get out of range, but he can do BR/BR BE to catch back tech. side ukemis will make that miss though. in general it seems like teching after asta lands stun moves or big hits is a bad idea. you're gonna eat a ton if he does the guaranteed stuff anyway so you dont lose anything by not teching. don't tech after his CH 6K cause his 1AA will mess you up, but you will have time to block if he does 22B so yea
if he does 22B the same time as you do an A+B bubble he'll evade it and smack you. however, his 22B hits too slow for him to do this on reaction so he has to guess. if you predict him to do 22B you can QUICKSTEP (8WR/regular step sometimes gets hit anyway) it and get a free whiff punish
vs Cervantes
Guard Punishes:
aB - 4BA (only if in range)
BBB - 4BA
44B - 4BA (if in range)
3A+B (mm) - 4BA
3B - AA (2nd hit whiffs if too far)
WR AB - FC A/B if in range
1AB (l,m) - 3B
1K - WR B
11K (+ on hit) - 4BA
22AA (l,l) - FC A/6B (not that 22AB is guard break 2nd hit with free CE on guard but its slow so you should step or DP it or something)
DC K - WR B
iGDR - 4BA/3B/66B/back grab
normal GDR - 4BA (sweet)
vs Dampierre
1A - 4BA/66B
1B - 4BA/66B/WR B
1K (may random go to fake pain) - can't punish unless he goes to fake pain, in which case you can 66B or something
1(K) (may random go to fake pain) - he can release it early but you can just jump him regardless with 9B/9K
2A+B - 4BA/66B
3BB - step left to evade 2nd hit
11B (mid launcher) - 3B
623K - only first hit is mid, duck and WR B or you can FC A+B. the first kick is -20 or so on block as well. it TJ very fast....
he has a canned mixup from his 33BK. the first B can be either a regular or a guard break, and then the K can be mid or low. provided the B was not a guard break you can stuff the mixup with DP
Fake Pain stance has a mid break attack with B and crouch grabs. if he falls to the ground it goes to...
Poker Bluff. A is high, B is mid, K is low, and he has low hitting grabs. entry moves include 66B and 66K
623B is a move you can't punish that goes to a lot of damage. it is linear and randomly goes to poker bluff. if he goes to poker bluff from this he is pretty safe and will generally be able to guard anything you do but you do have initiative so do a grounded hitting mid or low attack quickly. 2B/3B/9K etc are decent options
- his 6B is a fast high with +2 on guard
- if he does CE and you didn't get auto GIed immediately smack him. it doesn't stay active like Nightmare's does
vs Ezio
1A - 4BA
11K (+ on hit low) - 4BA
6K2 - free 4BA if he hits you, free whateaver if you block it
33BB - step right to evade the 2nd hit
CE - 4BA
Crossbow bolts are much faster than bubbles so you'll have to be careful with your bubbles in this matchup. If you block one you can get a free CE from anywhere. If he likes to use 6B+K 2B (high bolt, roll, low bolt) be wary that you cannot 8WR the 2nd shot. If you predict it you can punish it with 8B+K K or you can do an empty QI and you will land next to him for free 66B etc. you can also go for a QI mixup after a blocked bolt and it is hard for him to interrupt. You can also intentionally dash forward and block bolts to get frames.
vs Hilde
- 3BA is m,h and 3BB is mm but 3BB is usnafe and -4 on hit
- to punish (A+B) step left (clockwise) and the guard break stab will whiff
- reacting to 2B+K would be good. she gets a bit lower stance before doing it, her head gets a bit lower though she doesnt' seem to be looking at your feet or anything
1A - 4BA/66B
1B - 4BA
2B+K - WR B
11A - 4BA if close
C3A try to JG it. 3B is free if u do! or you can DP the 2nd hit...less dmg tho
22B try to JG it. 3B is free if u do!
B grab is reverse RO
her 66K is a safe mid with large advantage on hit and CH knockdown stun. if she hits you and does a repeat you can't step it. if you're hit from far enough away you can backstep a repeat. it tracks step to one side too. you can step it left (clockwise). you can also left step her grabs....
vs Leixia
AAB - BB
3B - AA or K (neither punishes if too far, K has more range though)
22K - 4BA
WR A+B - block first hit then 4BA
2A+B - WR B
11AA - 4BA after 1st hit. if she does the 2nd hit you will hit her out of the air
CE - 4BA/3B BE
vs Maxi
Guard Punishes (I'll have example starters for the stances listed):
RC AB (from AA) - just guard 2nd hit for 4BA/3B. he can delay the 2nd hit though
LO K (from 4B) - FC A
66B (goes to LI) - step left to dodge all LI followups
RO B (from 1B) - 4BA
LI A (from 66B) - 3B/66B. this also works even if he does the BE version which has more pushback
WR B - 4BA
vs Mitsu
2KB/2KB6 - 4BA free if he hits you with it. if he does 2KB6 to MST A+B he can super armor the 1st hit but its still free. on block you get 3B BE/66B
2KBE - 3B BE/66B
3B - BB...but be careful of his 3B BE as the 2nd hit will get you. can't punish 3B BE on guard
66BB - 3B/66B on block. note that this string is extremely delayable
1A - 4BA/FC 8B
CE - 3B BE/66B
his mid attacks from MST are very slow. use TC moves against it
be wary of his retreating stab, 4B. you can't punish it on block and it may re-track if you step too early. he can also cancel it to MST
vs Natsu
Discussion Thread
AAB - 6BBB (only first hit will connect though)
1A - WR B
11A - block first hit and WR B
66K - 4BA
66B BE - block first hit and duck 2nd for WR B
A+B4 - you can't punish normal A+B on guard but if she is doing this version you can 4BA/3B/66B etc. she teleports away from you into a FC state
PO K - 4BA/3B BE
PO B+K - she is lying down after this. you can get FC B or a CE
After blocking 6A+B4 you have some options to consider. Her PO A will trade with i14 attacks from this on guard.
- AA beats PO A and PO K (lose to PO A+B and B+K)
- 2A beats PO A and PO B+K (lose to PO K)
- 6KK trades with her PO A and beats everything else
After blocking 4A+B6 you have some options as well.
- FC 3B beats PO A and PO B+K, lose to PO K and hover will evade it
You can't punish any of her hover attacks on guard. You can step right when she goes into hover to avoid all the attacks but depending on the timing you may still get hit by hover A (the low).
She has an A BE grab that reverse ROs. Her command grab is a B break and from PO this is the only grab she can use.
Beware that her FC 3KK looks like her 1K on the first hit but the 2nd looks like WR K and is a frametrap on block from the first hit. You can FC A her 1K on block but unless you're dead sure it's 1K and not FC 3KK you better not try it or you'll eat a CH combo.
vs Nightmare
Guard Punishes:
4KK - duck 2nd hit and WR B. this also works if he does 4K BE
3AA - 66A (consistent except at perfect tip range)/4BA/66B (if close enough)/CE
A+B - 4BA/66B/3B
GS A - 4BA
NSS K - 4BA
NSS bA - 4BA
NSS A+B - AA/K not punishable if blocked at max range
FC grabs - 4BA
22AA - single B or K if close enough. learn to just guard the 2nd hit for 3B/66B. if back to wall can get 4BA
BB - QS left (clockwise) after blocking first hit for free whiff punish or do 99B (1P). normal step can't evade it
AAB - step last hit either side
33B BE - block and 4BA or step left and whiff punish
Stance Transition move punishes:
GS B6 - 3AA guaranteed if he goes to GS. however, you whiff if he does GS B without going to GS again. risky to do
66K/66K6 - mixup 4BA with blocking GS A to 4BA. 2A always free
33B/33B6 - mixup 4BA with blocking GS A (or 33B BE) to 4BA punish. at a max range block GS K can trade with your 4BA. CE is free regardless. 2A free if he is close or does GS. 1B free unless he does delayed GS A, but normal hit is weak
Update: GS cancel makes 33B6 safe if he does it right. Go for throws/1K or try to make him block 66B.
1A/1A6 - 66A free regardless of range, he can't duck it with empty GS. if he doesn't GS he can guard it. 2A if close or he does GS, CE (note that FC A+B gets you hit here)
3B/3(B) - FC A+B (beat all attacks he can do except at max range guard GS A can reflect the bubble and NSS B can trade with it). CE is free regardless. 2A/FC3B bad options if he does 3(B) 4
from a mid range blocked 3(B) even good range attacks like 66A and 66B will whiff
WR (B) > 2A beats all attacks but whiffs if he does nothing. 66B beats nss b:A but loses to regular (slower) nss bA but nothing else
6(B) - can't punish normal 6B but otherwise 4BA/66B will beat anything other than nss bA
44(B) - NM's strongest transition on guard, FC A loses to NSS K. FC 3B will stuff most things except NSS bA can dodge it (though you wont get a free hit for this like from 3B) and unless super close he can GS A it
(A) - NSS K beats your 2A here. plus he might do AA. nothing super solid here
4B(B) - 2A free if close. normal 4BB and NSS K are puniseshed AA/K but they lose to nss bA
Generally TCing A moves like 2A are ideal to counter NM's stances. His A+B is also a cause for concern as it can stuff many algol moves like AA, BB, 1B, 3AA, 3BB, 6B+K, 66A+B etc. low attacks cannot be countered and neither can moves that do sufficient damage like 66B.
vs Patroklos
1K (he is + on hit) - 4BA
11K (he is + on hit) - 4BA
1A - 4BA
3B - 4BA
236AB - 4BA
236B - BB (if close), 4BBB (only first hits), max range you can't punish it -_-
236K - 4BA
6BBB (mhm) - duck and punish after 2nd hit. while you can get WR B the reaction time needed to do this without getting hit by the 3rd hit is pretty harsh so I'd suggest you just bust out a fast move rather than risk getting CH in the face by the 3rd hit unless you're really confident. and by fast i mean like, do 2A lol
WR KA (mm) - BB
CE - 4BA/66B/3B
66A BE - DP the second hit. you can also step left after blocking the first
other notes:
- 3KK is m,h. 44KK is hh
- his 1B is +0 on block and his 66B is -2 so be careful if you attack after blocking it.
- his 3A is -12 so Algol can't punish 3A and it's + on hit unlike Pyrrhas
-his 66A is safe at about -6 it seems. has a TC but its pretty wonky so it will mostly still lose to highs probably
- his command grab with the knees is with 66B+G. it can front RO
- A+B auto GIs mids and is high, lol
- 8A+B is mmm. you only get K or single A if close enough
- 8B+K is some random jumping move. if close enough you get FC A, otherwise it gets blocked
- 66B+K is his random ass OTG move. 2nd hit whiffs on guard so you can even get 44B lol
- 22AA/22A(A) both hits are high. they can make the 2nd hit a guard break but since you can duck in either case i fail to see the thought process behind this move
- 33B launcher can't be punished by algol
- 11B launcher gives you K/single A
vs Pyrrha
Guard Punishes:
1AA - 3B
11AA - AA
11A(A) - after a certain point the guard break is forced. step left and whiff punish. depending on range and when you step you might still get hit. maybe best to just 2A her
WR A+B - no punish
WR (A+B) - same as the 11A(A) guard break. step left and punish. depending on range and when you step you might still get hit. maybe best to just 2A her
3B - 4BA (must be close enough)
33B - AA
44B - AA
236AA - 4BA or 9B/9K the second hit. 9B/9K the 2nd hit also punishes the 236AA BE
236B - 4BA (gotta be quick)
2K - FC A
1K - FC 3B
66K - BB
CE - 4BA
66B BE - WR B will make the 2nd hit whiff and hit her. you can also DP the second hit or 88A(1P side)/22A(2P side)
note that 66B tends to blow through her A+B auto GI with great consistency
if she hits you with BB...
quickstep (NOT normal step or repeat BB can hit you if you're even a little late) left/clockwise to avoid a repeat. the 2nd hit can snag you otherwise. the 2nd hit can also snag you for backdashing and trying to punish. you have to backstep cancel to another backstep to avoid the 2nd B
her 66B on guard...
- your 66B will stuff her 2A but not AA
- 2A stuffs all her attacks that don't jump (or the A+B auto GI). even if she backsteps it she can't punish easily (though it is possible). if blocked up close she can't backstep it anyway (not even backstep G)
- from juggles to stab try aircontrol back right/left to get farthest away
- her B grab and 236B:4 (normal JF) to 66B can't be rolled.
- command grab A you can easily roll 66B both sides but 66B BE is free if you rolled and hurts a lot
vs Pyrrha Omega
1AA - 3B
11AA- 4BA
11A(A) - after a certain point she is forced to do the unblockable, step left and hit her from behind. back grab is an option here
4AA - duck 2nd hit and WR B, but beware of 4AB
4AB - 4BA
3B - 4BA
33B - AA
44B - AA
236A - 4BA
236B - 4BA (gotta be quick)
236236B - K
2K - FC A
1K - 4BA
66K - BB
CE - 3B
4AB - 4BA
Be wary of using unsafe attacks as she can punish you easily with her 236B. Things that normally aren't super punishable on block like 3BB, 66A, 3AA, etc are suddenly very dangerous to do. You can't sidestep her 2K with Algol which is irritating.
avoiding 66B block setups (groundroll left/clockwise to avoid these setups):
A grab
B grab (full)
CE
NS B:4
DNS B:4
DNS B combo ender (tested from 4AB)
Other knockdowns/66B setups:
command A grab - puts her in BT, her BT B+K will catch siderolls
236:B - roll left or ukemi left to avoid 66B
236A > normal 236B - if you do not ukemi 66B is a forced block. ukemi left to avoid 66B (though either side works here)
3B > CE > 66B - if she does this you can left/clockwise ukemi to evade 66B
vs Raphael
AB (h,l) - FC A
1A - 4BA
A+BA - FC A
33B (l) - 4BA (only if close)
11K (l) - 4BA
11BB (l,l) - FC A or 9K the 2nd low
BBB - 4BA
6BBB (hhm) - 4BA
44B (retreating stab) - 4BA (unless too far)
236B - FC A
6BB/prep BB BE - Last hit steppable to his left. FC A on guard. You can also DP him after the first 2 hits but I'm not sure this would be easy to do in match play
Prep K (mid) - 4BA
Prep A+B (low) - 4BA (only if close), 66B, or CE if outside 66B range
CE - 4BA/3B BE
His quick attacks from prep stance are high. He can go to a backstep parry thing with 4 and he can go to SE with 2. From SE he has A and B mids and K as a low.
from 3(B) on block
- 66B stuffs everything if you're close enough but can whiff depending on distance if he does the retreating evade with 4 or SE moves. you also have to be quick about it cause its a double input
- 3BB is easy input and avoids the high moves easily but trades with his prep K
- 1B has more range than 66B and 3B but loses to prep BB because it doesn't TC fast enough I guess
vs Sieg
3A - AA/2A/K (most reliable range)
SRSH B - 3B
SRSH K/(K) - WR B
WR AA (note that you cannot jump the 2nd hit) - WR B/66B
duck his 66A guard break on reaction
If you block his 3(B) backstep is a good option. Backstep will make his K, B, and A followups whiff. Whiff Punish with 3B after the backstep as this will also TC under the 2nd hit of his SCH KK and beat out the 2nd hit of SCH AA.
vs Tira
1A - FC A
236K - WR B (you can't punish the BE version on guard -_-)
JS 6AB - FC A
JS 1K - WR B
JS 66B BE (m,m) - DP the 2nd hit after blocking the first
GS 1K - 4BA
GS 3AA (m,m,h) - duck and WR B the last hit, but you must be quick. GS 3A BE just adds more high hits, WR B after the final hit
GS 3B - AA (if close, can use K instead for better range. at max range you can't punish)
CE - 4BA/66B/3B
vs Viola
6AA (h, l neutral on hit vs algol, seems +1 in mirror tho...) - 4BA
66AAB (hhh) - duck and punish 2nd hit
set 8A+B - 3B. can't punish if she did it from orb mode
3B - if in set it has good pushout and you can't punish unless super close. -14
1A (+ on hit low)- 4BA/66B
1K - 4BA
1A+B - 4BA/66B/WR B
44K (+ on hit low) - can't punish at max range. otherwise can FC 3B/WR K
her B grab has front RO
vs Xiba
His 6A and 6B go to a sidestepping, TCing mid kick. If he BE it will add another mid after the kick as well. If you block 6A/6B you can 2A him out of the evading kick. 2A doesn't punish 6A and 6B if he doesn't go to the kick followup though, so he can JG/GI your 2A if he predicts it as a response. Another option is to left step after the 6A is blocked as this will evade the followup, leading to a whiff punish. For some reason I can't step it from 6B blocked. Once again, this is only if he goes to the kick followup, otherwise he's safe.
Guard Punish:
1A - 4BA if in range
1A+B/3A+B - 4BA
33AA (l,l very neg on hit) - WR B/66B
11B (l) - 6BB (you almost can't punish this at all...no FC A even)
22K (super neg on hit, CH KND) - WR B
REM K (low) - 4BA/66B
REM AK (hm) - 4BA
AAK (hhm) - 4BA
22AB - K
22B (aka stupid TC launcher from step) - 4BA (if close enough, otherwise he can block)/BB (more reliable)
WR K - AA
A+BB/A+BBK - whether he goes to the kick followup or not 3B is guaranteed after the A+BB
while down A+B (low) - 44B (lol), 66B, WR B, etc
CE - 4BA
moves that go to REM - 3A(B), B(B), 3(B), 4(B+K). it GIs A attacks and kicks that are like As (like your 1K)
vs Yoshimitsu
3B - K/AA/6B (6B only if blocked up close, and if far block 2nd hit of AA may whiff)
214A - 4BA
FC 3K - WR B
Flea/Indian A (low) - 4BA
DGF K - WR B
CE - WR B/66B
step right avoids DGF K and B but not A
his command grab A has reverse RO. his 3B is unrollable after B grab and A command grab. from normal A grab you can't groundroll it but if you back tech he will whiff
SDGF B unblockable is retarded. you can't punish it on JG (even natsu can't get AA) and even if you step it you can't really whiff punish it. if you're REALLY fast you can get a free 2A when he whiffs it. quickstep to dodge it, 8WR will get hit. SDGF A hits step but its slow so if you're quickstepping you should be able to see it and guard in time
if he does SDGF B from his grabs you still have time to stand up and step if you stood up immediately.
vs Zwei
punish heirarchy
FC A < FC 3B/WR KK < 4BA < 66B < WR B (only stronger than 4BA is you use meter)
K/AA/2A < BB < 4BA < 66B < 3B (3B is only stronger than 4BA if you use meter)
Generic Punishes:
basic 2K/1K are generally punishable only by FC A, or 6KK if close enough
basic running slide low kick generally punishable by WR B
vs Aeon
1A - FC 3B (only if close), 6BBB (stable but only first hit hits)
1K - 4BA
11K (sweep) - WR B
11B (+4 on hit low) - FC A
66K - 4BA
BBB - can step 2nd hit both sides and 3rd hit can be stepped left (clockwise)
3B - K/6B only if close
6BB (m,h) - duck and punish 2nd hit
6B BE - can DP the last hit, just guard for 3B, or you can just step it (recommended)
22AB (2nd hit is delayable) - 4BA
CE - 4BA/66B/3B (it looks like it would be a multi hit CE but its not)
Aeon 66A will generally stuff all movement because it is a long range A attack. You can't punish it on block (-12) so go for a mixup, guage damage, or backstep to get some more space between you. If you attack after 66A your B and 4B will trade but it will be highly unfavorable and not recommended. Only AA, 2A, K, 2K, and 6KK will stuff a repeat on hit.
His 4B+K is also noteworthy as it TCs and can sometimes even go under mids depending on timing. You cannot punish it on guard. He has a 4B+Kg that makes him fall on the ground after doing the attack. This one can be punished with 3B, 44B, or CE
his 1B BE is quick, damaging mid with + on guard but it does not track and has no range so unless he's right in your face he can't use it, and even then if you predict it you will generally be able to make it whiff with a sidestep or backstep
his 11A, 66B, and 8B+K go to his Sand Winger stance. From this stance he only has a K followup unless he does BE fireball or BE fireball cancel. All are punishable by a sidestep to a 3B, though you'll get air hit if he does the BEs and you attack too quickly.
if he is doing 66B without the followup you can get 66B/3B. SW K recovers so low you can't 4BA or 66B him when it misses easily. do 3B/44B/22B. if close enough you can get 66B after blocking it but you must be very close or you'll whiff. CE is free of course
vs Algol (mirror)
6AAB - 4BA. you can also duck the 2nd hit and WR B
3AA - AA/6B (-14)
4AB - 4BA (if in range) or CE
4BA - 4BA/66B/3B
44AA - 66B
33ABK - 1st his is safe but if he goes to 2nd hit you can AA him out of it
1A - 4BA
11K/77K - 4BA
1K - 4BA
QI K - 3B (this forces you into a standing guard even though it is a low....how odd...)
1B - AA (only if close)
3BB - AA/6B (-14)
WR B - AA/6B (-14)
623B - 66B/3B
2B+KB - DP the bubble, bubble will combo with the DP for 54 dmg. can't punish 2B+K alone on block though. pyrrha can stab 2B+K (no bubble) but she'll get a tip hit so no stun/JF
CE - 66B (if in range) or CE him back. 2B+KB is punishable on guard by AA/6B if close enough
vs Astaroth
Discussion Thread
6K blocked = free AA/2A/K
4KK = FC A
1KA = free 4BA after 1st hit whether he does A followup or not
2B+K (1B in SC4) = free 4BA/FC 8B/66B if in range. FC 8B seems to have a bit more range than 4BA here. if you block it from far out you can only punish with CE
To punish Bullrush BE, just DP the second hit. If you block it close you can step left (clockwise) to avoid it but if you block it from far you can't step it.
66AB/66A(B) - step either way to avoid the 2nd hit and punish
his 6K is only +2 on hit now so 2A will stuff all his mids. he can only beat you with backstep/crouch grab/jump
From bullrush BE if he follows up with 2A it will hit ground and catch side techs. if you back tech you can get out of range, but he can do BR/BR BE to catch back tech. side ukemis will make that miss though. in general it seems like teching after asta lands stun moves or big hits is a bad idea. you're gonna eat a ton if he does the guaranteed stuff anyway so you dont lose anything by not teching. don't tech after his CH 6K cause his 1AA will mess you up, but you will have time to block if he does 22B so yea
if he does 22B the same time as you do an A+B bubble he'll evade it and smack you. however, his 22B hits too slow for him to do this on reaction so he has to guess. if you predict him to do 22B you can QUICKSTEP (8WR/regular step sometimes gets hit anyway) it and get a free whiff punish
vs Cervantes
Guard Punishes:
aB - 4BA (only if in range)
BBB - 4BA
44B - 4BA (if in range)
3A+B (mm) - 4BA
3B - AA (2nd hit whiffs if too far)
WR AB - FC A/B if in range
1AB (l,m) - 3B
1K - WR B
11K (+ on hit) - 4BA
22AA (l,l) - FC A/6B (not that 22AB is guard break 2nd hit with free CE on guard but its slow so you should step or DP it or something)
DC K - WR B
iGDR - 4BA/3B/66B/back grab
normal GDR - 4BA (sweet)
vs Dampierre
1A - 4BA/66B
1B - 4BA/66B/WR B
1K (may random go to fake pain) - can't punish unless he goes to fake pain, in which case you can 66B or something
1(K) (may random go to fake pain) - he can release it early but you can just jump him regardless with 9B/9K
2A+B - 4BA/66B
3BB - step left to evade 2nd hit
11B (mid launcher) - 3B
623K - only first hit is mid, duck and WR B or you can FC A+B. the first kick is -20 or so on block as well. it TJ very fast....
he has a canned mixup from his 33BK. the first B can be either a regular or a guard break, and then the K can be mid or low. provided the B was not a guard break you can stuff the mixup with DP
Fake Pain stance has a mid break attack with B and crouch grabs. if he falls to the ground it goes to...
Poker Bluff. A is high, B is mid, K is low, and he has low hitting grabs. entry moves include 66B and 66K
623B is a move you can't punish that goes to a lot of damage. it is linear and randomly goes to poker bluff. if he goes to poker bluff from this he is pretty safe and will generally be able to guard anything you do but you do have initiative so do a grounded hitting mid or low attack quickly. 2B/3B/9K etc are decent options
- his 6B is a fast high with +2 on guard
- if he does CE and you didn't get auto GIed immediately smack him. it doesn't stay active like Nightmare's does
vs Ezio
1A - 4BA
11K (+ on hit low) - 4BA
6K2 - free 4BA if he hits you, free whateaver if you block it
33BB - step right to evade the 2nd hit
CE - 4BA
Crossbow bolts are much faster than bubbles so you'll have to be careful with your bubbles in this matchup. If you block one you can get a free CE from anywhere. If he likes to use 6B+K 2B (high bolt, roll, low bolt) be wary that you cannot 8WR the 2nd shot. If you predict it you can punish it with 8B+K K or you can do an empty QI and you will land next to him for free 66B etc. you can also go for a QI mixup after a blocked bolt and it is hard for him to interrupt. You can also intentionally dash forward and block bolts to get frames.
vs Hilde
- 3BA is m,h and 3BB is mm but 3BB is usnafe and -4 on hit
- to punish (A+B) step left (clockwise) and the guard break stab will whiff
- reacting to 2B+K would be good. she gets a bit lower stance before doing it, her head gets a bit lower though she doesnt' seem to be looking at your feet or anything
1A - 4BA/66B
1B - 4BA
2B+K - WR B
11A - 4BA if close
C3A try to JG it. 3B is free if u do! or you can DP the 2nd hit...less dmg tho
22B try to JG it. 3B is free if u do!
B grab is reverse RO
her 66K is a safe mid with large advantage on hit and CH knockdown stun. if she hits you and does a repeat you can't step it. if you're hit from far enough away you can backstep a repeat. it tracks step to one side too. you can step it left (clockwise). you can also left step her grabs....
vs Leixia
AAB - BB
3B - AA or K (neither punishes if too far, K has more range though)
22K - 4BA
WR A+B - block first hit then 4BA
2A+B - WR B
11AA - 4BA after 1st hit. if she does the 2nd hit you will hit her out of the air
CE - 4BA/3B BE
vs Maxi
Guard Punishes (I'll have example starters for the stances listed):
RC AB (from AA) - just guard 2nd hit for 4BA/3B. he can delay the 2nd hit though
LO K (from 4B) - FC A
66B (goes to LI) - step left to dodge all LI followups
RO B (from 1B) - 4BA
LI A (from 66B) - 3B/66B. this also works even if he does the BE version which has more pushback
WR B - 4BA
vs Mitsu
2KB/2KB6 - 4BA free if he hits you with it. if he does 2KB6 to MST A+B he can super armor the 1st hit but its still free. on block you get 3B BE/66B
2KBE - 3B BE/66B
3B - BB...but be careful of his 3B BE as the 2nd hit will get you. can't punish 3B BE on guard
66BB - 3B/66B on block. note that this string is extremely delayable
1A - 4BA/FC 8B
CE - 3B BE/66B
his mid attacks from MST are very slow. use TC moves against it
be wary of his retreating stab, 4B. you can't punish it on block and it may re-track if you step too early. he can also cancel it to MST
vs Natsu
Discussion Thread
AAB - 6BBB (only first hit will connect though)
1A - WR B
11A - block first hit and WR B
66K - 4BA
66B BE - block first hit and duck 2nd for WR B
A+B4 - you can't punish normal A+B on guard but if she is doing this version you can 4BA/3B/66B etc. she teleports away from you into a FC state
PO K - 4BA/3B BE
PO B+K - she is lying down after this. you can get FC B or a CE
After blocking 6A+B4 you have some options to consider. Her PO A will trade with i14 attacks from this on guard.
- AA beats PO A and PO K (lose to PO A+B and B+K)
- 2A beats PO A and PO B+K (lose to PO K)
- 6KK trades with her PO A and beats everything else
After blocking 4A+B6 you have some options as well.
- FC 3B beats PO A and PO B+K, lose to PO K and hover will evade it
You can't punish any of her hover attacks on guard. You can step right when she goes into hover to avoid all the attacks but depending on the timing you may still get hit by hover A (the low).
She has an A BE grab that reverse ROs. Her command grab is a B break and from PO this is the only grab she can use.
Beware that her FC 3KK looks like her 1K on the first hit but the 2nd looks like WR K and is a frametrap on block from the first hit. You can FC A her 1K on block but unless you're dead sure it's 1K and not FC 3KK you better not try it or you'll eat a CH combo.
vs Nightmare
Guard Punishes:
4KK - duck 2nd hit and WR B. this also works if he does 4K BE
3AA - 66A (consistent except at perfect tip range)/4BA/66B (if close enough)/CE
A+B - 4BA/66B/3B
GS A - 4BA
NSS K - 4BA
NSS bA - 4BA
NSS A+B - AA/K not punishable if blocked at max range
FC grabs - 4BA
22AA - single B or K if close enough. learn to just guard the 2nd hit for 3B/66B. if back to wall can get 4BA
BB - QS left (clockwise) after blocking first hit for free whiff punish or do 99B (1P). normal step can't evade it
AAB - step last hit either side
33B BE - block and 4BA or step left and whiff punish
Stance Transition move punishes:
GS B6 - 3AA guaranteed if he goes to GS. however, you whiff if he does GS B without going to GS again. risky to do
66K/66K6 - mixup 4BA with blocking GS A to 4BA. 2A always free
33B/33B6 - mixup 4BA with blocking GS A (or 33B BE) to 4BA punish. at a max range block GS K can trade with your 4BA. CE is free regardless. 2A free if he is close or does GS. 1B free unless he does delayed GS A, but normal hit is weak
Update: GS cancel makes 33B6 safe if he does it right. Go for throws/1K or try to make him block 66B.
1A/1A6 - 66A free regardless of range, he can't duck it with empty GS. if he doesn't GS he can guard it. 2A if close or he does GS, CE (note that FC A+B gets you hit here)
3B/3(B) - FC A+B (beat all attacks he can do except at max range guard GS A can reflect the bubble and NSS B can trade with it). CE is free regardless. 2A/FC3B bad options if he does 3(B) 4
from a mid range blocked 3(B) even good range attacks like 66A and 66B will whiff
WR (B) > 2A beats all attacks but whiffs if he does nothing. 66B beats nss b:A but loses to regular (slower) nss bA but nothing else
6(B) - can't punish normal 6B but otherwise 4BA/66B will beat anything other than nss bA
44(B) - NM's strongest transition on guard, FC A loses to NSS K. FC 3B will stuff most things except NSS bA can dodge it (though you wont get a free hit for this like from 3B) and unless super close he can GS A it
(A) - NSS K beats your 2A here. plus he might do AA. nothing super solid here
4B(B) - 2A free if close. normal 4BB and NSS K are puniseshed AA/K but they lose to nss bA
Generally TCing A moves like 2A are ideal to counter NM's stances. His A+B is also a cause for concern as it can stuff many algol moves like AA, BB, 1B, 3AA, 3BB, 6B+K, 66A+B etc. low attacks cannot be countered and neither can moves that do sufficient damage like 66B.
vs Patroklos
1K (he is + on hit) - 4BA
11K (he is + on hit) - 4BA
1A - 4BA
3B - 4BA
236AB - 4BA
236B - BB (if close), 4BBB (only first hits), max range you can't punish it -_-
236K - 4BA
6BBB (mhm) - duck and punish after 2nd hit. while you can get WR B the reaction time needed to do this without getting hit by the 3rd hit is pretty harsh so I'd suggest you just bust out a fast move rather than risk getting CH in the face by the 3rd hit unless you're really confident. and by fast i mean like, do 2A lol
WR KA (mm) - BB
CE - 4BA/66B/3B
66A BE - DP the second hit. you can also step left after blocking the first
other notes:
- 3KK is m,h. 44KK is hh
- his 1B is +0 on block and his 66B is -2 so be careful if you attack after blocking it.
- his 3A is -12 so Algol can't punish 3A and it's + on hit unlike Pyrrhas
-his 66A is safe at about -6 it seems. has a TC but its pretty wonky so it will mostly still lose to highs probably
- his command grab with the knees is with 66B+G. it can front RO
- A+B auto GIs mids and is high, lol
- 8A+B is mmm. you only get K or single A if close enough
- 8B+K is some random jumping move. if close enough you get FC A, otherwise it gets blocked
- 66B+K is his random ass OTG move. 2nd hit whiffs on guard so you can even get 44B lol
- 22AA/22A(A) both hits are high. they can make the 2nd hit a guard break but since you can duck in either case i fail to see the thought process behind this move
- 33B launcher can't be punished by algol
- 11B launcher gives you K/single A
vs Pyrrha
Guard Punishes:
1AA - 3B
11AA - AA
11A(A) - after a certain point the guard break is forced. step left and whiff punish. depending on range and when you step you might still get hit. maybe best to just 2A her
WR A+B - no punish
WR (A+B) - same as the 11A(A) guard break. step left and punish. depending on range and when you step you might still get hit. maybe best to just 2A her
3B - 4BA (must be close enough)
33B - AA
44B - AA
236AA - 4BA or 9B/9K the second hit. 9B/9K the 2nd hit also punishes the 236AA BE
236B - 4BA (gotta be quick)
2K - FC A
1K - FC 3B
66K - BB
CE - 4BA
66B BE - WR B will make the 2nd hit whiff and hit her. you can also DP the second hit or 88A(1P side)/22A(2P side)
note that 66B tends to blow through her A+B auto GI with great consistency
if she hits you with BB...
quickstep (NOT normal step or repeat BB can hit you if you're even a little late) left/clockwise to avoid a repeat. the 2nd hit can snag you otherwise. the 2nd hit can also snag you for backdashing and trying to punish. you have to backstep cancel to another backstep to avoid the 2nd B
her 66B on guard...
- your 66B will stuff her 2A but not AA
- 2A stuffs all her attacks that don't jump (or the A+B auto GI). even if she backsteps it she can't punish easily (though it is possible). if blocked up close she can't backstep it anyway (not even backstep G)
- from juggles to stab try aircontrol back right/left to get farthest away
- her B grab and 236B:4 (normal JF) to 66B can't be rolled.
- command grab A you can easily roll 66B both sides but 66B BE is free if you rolled and hurts a lot
vs Pyrrha Omega
1AA - 3B
11AA- 4BA
11A(A) - after a certain point she is forced to do the unblockable, step left and hit her from behind. back grab is an option here
4AA - duck 2nd hit and WR B, but beware of 4AB
4AB - 4BA
3B - 4BA
33B - AA
44B - AA
236A - 4BA
236B - 4BA (gotta be quick)
236236B - K
2K - FC A
1K - 4BA
66K - BB
CE - 3B
4AB - 4BA
Be wary of using unsafe attacks as she can punish you easily with her 236B. Things that normally aren't super punishable on block like 3BB, 66A, 3AA, etc are suddenly very dangerous to do. You can't sidestep her 2K with Algol which is irritating.
avoiding 66B block setups (groundroll left/clockwise to avoid these setups):
A grab
B grab (full)
CE
NS B:4
DNS B:4
DNS B combo ender (tested from 4AB)
Other knockdowns/66B setups:
command A grab - puts her in BT, her BT B+K will catch siderolls
236:B - roll left or ukemi left to avoid 66B
236A > normal 236B - if you do not ukemi 66B is a forced block. ukemi left to avoid 66B (though either side works here)
3B > CE > 66B - if she does this you can left/clockwise ukemi to evade 66B
vs Raphael
AB (h,l) - FC A
1A - 4BA
A+BA - FC A
33B (l) - 4BA (only if close)
11K (l) - 4BA
11BB (l,l) - FC A or 9K the 2nd low
BBB - 4BA
6BBB (hhm) - 4BA
44B (retreating stab) - 4BA (unless too far)
236B - FC A
6BB/prep BB BE - Last hit steppable to his left. FC A on guard. You can also DP him after the first 2 hits but I'm not sure this would be easy to do in match play
Prep K (mid) - 4BA
Prep A+B (low) - 4BA (only if close), 66B, or CE if outside 66B range
CE - 4BA/3B BE
His quick attacks from prep stance are high. He can go to a backstep parry thing with 4 and he can go to SE with 2. From SE he has A and B mids and K as a low.
from 3(B) on block
- 66B stuffs everything if you're close enough but can whiff depending on distance if he does the retreating evade with 4 or SE moves. you also have to be quick about it cause its a double input
- 3BB is easy input and avoids the high moves easily but trades with his prep K
- 1B has more range than 66B and 3B but loses to prep BB because it doesn't TC fast enough I guess
vs Sieg
3A - AA/2A/K (most reliable range)
SRSH B - 3B
SRSH K/(K) - WR B
WR AA (note that you cannot jump the 2nd hit) - WR B/66B
duck his 66A guard break on reaction
If you block his 3(B) backstep is a good option. Backstep will make his K, B, and A followups whiff. Whiff Punish with 3B after the backstep as this will also TC under the 2nd hit of his SCH KK and beat out the 2nd hit of SCH AA.
vs Tira
1A - FC A
236K - WR B (you can't punish the BE version on guard -_-)
JS 6AB - FC A
JS 1K - WR B
JS 66B BE (m,m) - DP the 2nd hit after blocking the first
GS 1K - 4BA
GS 3AA (m,m,h) - duck and WR B the last hit, but you must be quick. GS 3A BE just adds more high hits, WR B after the final hit
GS 3B - AA (if close, can use K instead for better range. at max range you can't punish)
CE - 4BA/66B/3B
vs Viola
6AA (h, l neutral on hit vs algol, seems +1 in mirror tho...) - 4BA
66AAB (hhh) - duck and punish 2nd hit
set 8A+B - 3B. can't punish if she did it from orb mode
3B - if in set it has good pushout and you can't punish unless super close. -14
1A (+ on hit low)- 4BA/66B
1K - 4BA
1A+B - 4BA/66B/WR B
44K (+ on hit low) - can't punish at max range. otherwise can FC 3B/WR K
her B grab has front RO
vs Xiba
His 6A and 6B go to a sidestepping, TCing mid kick. If he BE it will add another mid after the kick as well. If you block 6A/6B you can 2A him out of the evading kick. 2A doesn't punish 6A and 6B if he doesn't go to the kick followup though, so he can JG/GI your 2A if he predicts it as a response. Another option is to left step after the 6A is blocked as this will evade the followup, leading to a whiff punish. For some reason I can't step it from 6B blocked. Once again, this is only if he goes to the kick followup, otherwise he's safe.
Guard Punish:
1A - 4BA if in range
1A+B/3A+B - 4BA
33AA (l,l very neg on hit) - WR B/66B
11B (l) - 6BB (you almost can't punish this at all...no FC A even)
22K (super neg on hit, CH KND) - WR B
REM K (low) - 4BA/66B
REM AK (hm) - 4BA
AAK (hhm) - 4BA
22AB - K
22B (aka stupid TC launcher from step) - 4BA (if close enough, otherwise he can block)/BB (more reliable)
WR K - AA
A+BB/A+BBK - whether he goes to the kick followup or not 3B is guaranteed after the A+BB
while down A+B (low) - 44B (lol), 66B, WR B, etc
CE - 4BA
moves that go to REM - 3A(B), B(B), 3(B), 4(B+K). it GIs A attacks and kicks that are like As (like your 1K)
vs Yoshimitsu
3B - K/AA/6B (6B only if blocked up close, and if far block 2nd hit of AA may whiff)
214A - 4BA
FC 3K - WR B
Flea/Indian A (low) - 4BA
DGF K - WR B
CE - WR B/66B
step right avoids DGF K and B but not A
his command grab A has reverse RO. his 3B is unrollable after B grab and A command grab. from normal A grab you can't groundroll it but if you back tech he will whiff
SDGF B unblockable is retarded. you can't punish it on JG (even natsu can't get AA) and even if you step it you can't really whiff punish it. if you're REALLY fast you can get a free 2A when he whiffs it. quickstep to dodge it, 8WR will get hit. SDGF A hits step but its slow so if you're quickstepping you should be able to see it and guard in time
if he does SDGF B from his grabs you still have time to stand up and step if you stood up immediately.
vs Zwei
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