let me add some of my "wishs" about ZWEI:
-give his 2A and 44A some range
-make 44B a little faster so it can be actually used(not too fast)
-give 66A the same property as NM Ag:A on airborne opponents to have some kind of wall combos
-make 3A BE hit-confirmable and delayable
-give EIN-less 6B+K B ground stun and make it a bit faster and less recovery frames
-make 4KB a bit safer(-14)
-remove the hitbox issue in 1K BE with some characters (e.g. Leixia)
EDIT:
-make 3B guaranteed on all characters after GI
Can his 3A BE also be safe on block? I can't understand why it isn't safe...yes 3b should get more range...so I can set my oki and force blocks trap's with zwei after that move hits..I just don't ever use it now. I agree with 44B right now its too damn slow to be effective in play. Also I would want 6A to be a bit safer and also A+B to be safer on block right now no I don't accept this move at just being -16 on guard. And my overall change well one of them is to remove the ability to wake up CE no seriously this needs to go.
Here's the list of Leixia changes that I created together with the input of ZeroEffect and Hyrul.
1. Increased damage on 3B (20 ---> 24/25/26)
2. Increased damage on 22B (24 ---> 28)
3. Increased damage on FC3B (26 ---> 30)
4. Increased damage on 3B+K (28 ---> 32)
5. Increased damage on B+G (45 ---> 50)
6. Increased damage on 66AA (26 ---> 30)
7. Increased damage on 44B (26 ---> 30)
8. Increased hitstun on 22K (+0 ---> +3/4/5)
9. 3B+KK NC (no tech possibility)
10. Reduce pushback of CE on hit, so 2K/3B becomes a mixup on everyone
11. Either remove damage scaling on WS B BE completely or restore immediate vertical evasiveness
12. Increased Guard Burst damage on 6A+B (12 ---> 10)
13. Increased Guard Burst damage on 3B+K (12 ---> 10)
14. Increased launch height on 6A+B (so 6A+B 3B/66K/CE is NH)
15. Maintain distance of 6KK on hit
16. Remove stun-animation for CH 44B
Reasons:
1./2./3.: They are the weakest launchers in the game right now and 3B would still give the weakest combo damage. 4.+9. Would be a better whiffpunisher or punisher for very unsafe moves. Right now she only has 3B 3B+K for 41dmg. 5. She has no mix-up-lows except for iWS A+B, no command throws and no BE-throws. It would help her a lot to open opponent's guard. 6. It's high and easily JG'able and doesn't even combo into anything, so it should do more damage than her BB. 7. It's the unsafest and weakest retreat move in the game (Mitsu's 4B, Raphaels 44B or Cervantes 44B are all safer and do more damage) and it would still be with this change. 8. Obvious, even other players think it has to give + frames. 10. The 3B/2K-mixup should work on everybody, it would help her not to get lost at mid/longrange after a successful CE. 11. Scaling didn't make sense anyways. 59dmg for a BE-combo is too low. 74dmg like the hit on whiffing opponents should always occur. 12.+13. Not as important as the other changes imo, but they would make those two moves more useful. 14. It would improve her whiffpunishment and blockpunishment for very unsafe moves. Additionally, her spacing would benefit from it. 15. Leixia should stay in mix-up range on hit, that's one of the two purposes of that move (the other being punishment). 16. Opponent shouldn't be rewarded for pushing buttons at the edge (doesn't give RO at CH). And the stun doesn't even give a combo.
We've had a lot of discussions about her changes.
Hyrul thinks that the proposed damage buffs are too much and would rather buff something else instead.
In my opinion, Leixia mostly suffers from not doing enough damage in that game. She can be as safe as she wants to be, but if the opponent does the right choice to counter her mindgame, he very often does more than twice the damage (depending on who is her opponent) she would have gotten. Thus, most of her defensive and even offensive tools don't favour her risk/reward.
And secondly, Leixia is very very weak at whiffpunishment and blockpunishment of very unsafe moves (like iGDR). She has 6KK for -14 and 3B for -17 and everything unsafer. And her 3B combo does 41dmg which is Mitsu's poke-damage.
It's ok that she's weak at spacing, lacks range and generally does less damage than other chars with "big weapons", but the difference right now is too big. Especially now that almost every character has at least one strong "go-for-it-combo" which Leixia has not. In a vacuum, she looks quite good, but in SC5 she doesn't compare to many other chars.
The list might look quite big, but I think everything is well justified and would only make her "normal mid" or maybe "mid+". It's not like she wouldn't have weaknesses anymore, she'd just do slightly more damage which would still be under average for SC5 standards.
To cut long story short: I'd like to see her damage getting buffed, because right now it's ridiculously stupid.
Let me specify that:
The 3 of you (I though you were supposed to bring Kayane in as well.. oh well, women..) couldnt agree which changes should be done to LeiXia and this is YOUR list, that you've come up with and Hyrul and Zeroeffect have different opinions.
If no, I'd like to know which changes all of you agreed to and which are your own.
Let me specify that:
The 3 of you (I though you were supposed to bring Kayane in as well.. oh well, women..) couldnt agree which changes should be done to LeiXia and this is YOUR list, that you've come up with and Hyrul and Zeroeffect have different opinions.
If no, I'd like to know which changes all of you agreed to and which are your own.
1. Kayane was involved, but hasn't seen the final list yet. She told me she has no time because of exams, that's why.
2. No, no, we really worked together and came up with this list as a combination of everybody's ideas. I'm just the one who posted. The reasons in the spoiler window are from all of us. The explanation below is mine though.
3. The only thing that one of us has not agreed with is Hyrul who disagrees with buffing her damage "so much". I don't know where and what exactly, but I think he would have buffed her spacing instead.
But Zero and Hyrul can also speak for themselves if they want to. :)
So what you want is a buff on the force block's guage damage post combo and for it to be NC, giving her a better punishment game at higher - frames?
Ah boy... If this goes through, I'm gonna get guard crushed all day in the summer XD.
Let me specify that:
The 3 of you (I though you were supposed to bring Kayane in as well.. oh well, women..) couldnt agree which changes should be done to LeiXia and this is YOUR list, that you've come up with and Hyrul and Zeroeffect have different opinions.
If no, I'd like to know which changes all of you agreed to and which are your own.
We had 3 pages of discussion but were unable to come to total agreement. Kalas and ZeroEffect mostly agreed with one another that the most effective way to buff her was to increase her damage on her main moves, so all her launchers dealt more damage. This would also be simpler for PS to implement, and so more likely that that would act accordingly.
I favoured making changes to her other less useful moves and their properties (things like Guard Burst, frames on block, damage for launch follow-ups) which would accomodate PS's intention that Leixia be a low-damage character, while equipping her with the tools to be tournament-worthy. But this approach was quite complicated, and it was more difficult to ascertain how much these changes would help (not enough or too much etc).
We were all in favour of additional buffs but couldn't agree on which ones. There were many changes that we had to scrap just to come to a compromise. We eventually settled on the above list, though I couldn't entirely agree on it; but we decided it was better to at least produce something.
On Kalas's list, I definitely agree with 3, 8, 10, 11, 12, 14, 15, 16.
Well belial this will be last post on here until someone replies to me. But um im going to tell you how I feel what should be done to the CE's....
- more punishable on block all CE's atleasts over -20 or more
- Remove wake up CE ( I feel this mechanic belongs on a 2d game not a 3d one...also for example lets say Im zwei and im using B+K BE on oki to see how my opponent reacts but..before I can even decide wake up CE just stops this setup..why penalize me if you were already knocked down? I think its just silly..and you cannot react and will never know if your opponent will wake up CE or not and even if you did predict it well your opponents are off the hook....or the CE is safe so no risk there, I mean there is risk...but if there expecting you to not attack them well then they won't CE).
- Maybe change the way Ivy's CE and astaroth's CE work? I dunno how you go about this...
this is it so far..so tell me what you think? personally tho wake up CE won't change but erm its atleasts a try :/
I was thinking about a small change to all BE throws (Hilde, Ivy, Cervy, Natsu etc). I think they should have a smaller escape window, like command throws (9 frames instead of 13f, like now). What do you guys think?
I was thinking about a small change to all BE throws (Hilde, Ivy, Cervy, Natsu etc). I think they should have a smaller escape window, like command throws (9 frames instead of 13f, like now). What do you guys think?
I understand the sentiment and I've thought this many times myself, and I bet hundreds of players have thought the same. But in effect, this would be a buff to Natsu, Ivy, Cervy, Hilde. It would mean you'd be less likely to break the throw even when you guessed right. I'm not sure this buff is really needed for these characters.
If we get to the point where players are demonstrably able to break throws, in a tournament setting, by reacting to the BE effect, then this would be a nice fix. But for now I'm not convinced it's possible (especially as you can delay the A+B+K press a little after the throw animation begins).
Hilde's BE throw is obviously the best because of the possibilities, but the rest isn't *that* great. When you are spending meter you should get something more than just a 15-20 dmg boost. So instead of increasing the damage making the escape window smaller would be a better idea imo.
I remember testing the delay of the yellow glow a long time ago, but to me it seemed that it can be delayed for maybe 3-5 frames, nothing that human eye would notice really.
I was thinking about a small change to all BE throws (Hilde, Ivy, Cervy, Natsu etc). I think they should have a smaller escape window, like command throws (9 frames instead of 13f, like now). What do you guys think?
I think the most important change would be to make the BE flash occur after the break window has ended. There are people who can react to the flash and know what to break.
REM K should be safer. It is not that difficult to see and is a relatively slow move, being - 19 is absurd. I see no reason for it to be more unsafe than -13 but -15 would probably be okay.
3kB should either be faster or safer. Xiba's punishment game is pretty bad and using this i16 punisher is a too much of a risk against a lot of moves. If you're one frame late you'll eat a big punish. I is also a nice interupt move but because of the unsafety it would be reckless to throw it out against a wise opponent. If it was safer both of these issues would be eliminated. -13 to -15 would be fine, but -18 makes it hard to use. If it was faster it could safely punish moves. Ideally i14 would be fine if the move is to remain at -18 on block. Or you could give it a little bit both ways.
33AA has no reason to be so unsafe on hit. Xiba does not have many great lows to work with and this being so unsafe is a joke. On hit -6 on the second hit would be fine. On block -17 on the second hit would be fine. The BE should combo naturally, really not sure why it doesn't and should only be -13.
Belial, if you could add my Yoshi thoughts to the main post would be cool, I think is reasonable, why bother in programming those moves if they are not gonna be used. You have to do at least 4 "4A+K" to start getting some good Tekken moves, which is a big risk for no reward. And even then a good Yoshi player wouldn't have that in his strategy at all, since there are more possibilities to get something that lead to Yoshi's dead than actually damaging the opponent.
Having a hit-confirmable NC 60 damage low that tracks step and has huge range would be kind of absurd, honestly. On block the low itself is a mixup between doing just one hit or doing both to interrupt their punish attempt. Even if they do a jumping move you can beat that by converting into the BE version. Being less - on hit would be good for him, but it's not like he has a shortage of good lows. kB is incredibly good (safe on block, + on hit, barely reactable at i22, and with a deceptive animation), and of course the Alex J special, 3A+B.
As for 3kB, Xiba is far more oriented towards whiff punishing (3BKK, A+BBK, 22B) and countering moves with aGIs, rather than block punishment. His post-GI game is also excellent with moves like 3BKK (no re-GI), A+BBK (re-GI), and even some stronger than average throws.
REM K is a pretty bad option, I agree. Unsafe on block, completely linear, and pretty slow. It was decent back when people weren't used to the animation but now it's pretty pointless.
Actually I considered mentioning Yoshi's 4A+K myself, problem is we're not really talking about balance any longer, the move has been poorly designed for this game to start with.
It seems unrealistic to have them go back to the drawing board with it so to speak, at least for now. I will make a little suggestion though, keep the random element, but re-implement the timer specific moves, have a random move from a smaller set, but more offensive or defensive. Make it so there are two specific windows so one can choose to go on offence at that moment if it's convenient, or defensive, if the moment is right and you get a move that will work for you.
As it is, no serious Yoshi player will ever use this move, as lolo said, it's just not worth the risk. Personally, the only move I really go for is the auto-evade which needs to be timed and if you don't get it...
Having said all that and while I'm here, I'd also like to see Astroth's 214A RO... No, I'm not going to stop with that one, come on if you're actually landing the attack throw there you deserve a chance for a RO, random or not...
I've been trying to land that one since SC2... I'll never give up and I'll always react the same way as I watch the game visibly pull them back in... PS, if you're reading this, Sir Isaac Newton would like a word with you...
