Blocked 3[B]

Sandman

Sandman

Windjammers World Champion
I had this idea last night (after getting Jimbonated several times by Ezio 22B), to compile a list of characters' best options after blocked 3(B) and what Siegfried can answer those options with. Basically, if I'm playing against a perfect Ezio (for example), what can I reasonably expect him to try when he blocks my 3(B), and what can I do to prevent getting my ass kicked.

And, if people can begin this list by, say, the start of SCV singles at NEC...that would be awesome.

EDIT: I'm not certain it was Ezio 22B. May be 33B.
 
Most of the time realign B(move backwards in SCH) works if they're stupid enough(most people are). In some special cases you'll have to do realign K(move forward in SCH). Although if they have a generic CE (i14 or faster) SCH K will go though them no matter what with the exception of their back being to the wall.

CEs invincibility frames rape Siegfried. A lot of his stances won't work because of CEs.
 
So does the realigning allow him to deal with moves that step and TC (like Pyrrha's 22B for example)?
I'm just wondering how many moves, besides CEs, are completely guaranteed after blocked 3(B). I'm pretty sure Cervy's aB is, at least.
 
HolyCarp said:
So does the realigning allow him to deal with moves that step and TC (like Pyrrha's 22B for example)?
I'm just wondering how many moves, besides CEs, are completely guaranteed after blocked 3(B). I'm pretty sure Cervy's aB is, at least.
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aB clashes with SCH K after a blocked 3(B). Pyrrha's 22B and be beat by a realign K but no Sieg player in their right mind would even think of doing that. Pyrrha will get hit by the first K then the second will whiff due to SCH K not forcing the opponent to stand and Pyrrha can stab him because of a design flaw. For 22B Sieg would be better off blocking in reaction to Pyrrha stepping and punishing 22B. I would say to do another SCH transition but Pyrrha's 22B tracks too well, doing a SSH transition doesn't work either since the backstep is too small. Sieg's best bet is to simply block.
 
HolyCarp said:
So does the realigning allow him to deal with moves that step and TC (like Pyrrha's 22B for example)?
I'm just wondering how many moves, besides CEs, are completely guaranteed after blocked 3(B). I'm pretty sure Cervy's aB is, at least.
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If you weren't such a terrible person, you would remember that i already told you that multiple times *DansGame*
That's exactly the point of realigning Siegfried - to beat Step TC's.

Keep in mind that if the move is slower than i20 sieg can just guess correctly and block. Also not safe are high moves because he can anticipate it and switch into SBH for a whiffpunish. Same goes for Horizontals which get GI'd.
 
ChaosK said:
If you weren't such a terrible person, you would remember that i already told you that multiple times *DansGame*
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If you weren't such a terrible player, you'd have stopped at least one of my 22Bs *Kappa*

But nah, thanks for the answers, guys :)
 
HolyCarp said:
If you weren't such a terrible player, you'd have stopped at least one of my 22Bs *Kappa*

But nah, thanks for the answers, guys :)
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If you weren't such a terrible player you would've noticed that i already did that multiple times and if you wouldn't drink so much you would remember that i also told you how :P
 
ChaosK said:
If you weren't such a terrible player you would've noticed that i already did that multiple times and if you wouldn't drink so much you would remember that i also told you how :P
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I'm on about Vanilla Pyrrha 22Bs, not Omega. You never stop Vanilla's 22B.
...also, I'm always sober in our fights. You'd know if I was drunk because I'd teabag more than usual.

Edit: come to think of it, a quick teabag is probably guaranteed after blocked 3(B) xD
 
HolyCarp said:
I'm on about Vanilla Pyrrha 22Bs, not Omega. You never stop Vanilla's 22B.
...also, I'm always sober in our fights. You'd know if I was drunk because I'd teabag more than usual.

Edit: come to think of it, a quick teabag is probably guaranteed after blocked 3(B) xD
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I know that you meant regular pyrrha :P Don't get me started on your omega doing 22B, i always tell you not to use it. Apparently losing half your life is not enough to discourage you from using it :P
 
ChaosK said:
I know that you meant regular pyrrha :P Don't get me started on your omega doing 22B, i always tell you not to use it. Apparently losing half your life is not enough to discourage you from using it :P
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But you love 3(B) > SCH K.
tbh, I don't mean to do it. It's just become an automatic habit from fighting scrubby Sieg players who can't deal with Omega's 22B. I really need to get used to either 224B or step > DNS B. He doesn't really seem able to do anything about those options.
 
HolyCarp said:
But you love 3(B) > SCH K.
tbh, I don't mean to do it. It's just become an automatic habit from fighting scrubby Sieg players who can't deal with Omega's 22B. I really need to get used to either 224B or step > DNS B. He doesn't really seem able to do anything about those options.
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Look closer. Its a mixup between me doing 3(B)~SCH K and me doing 3(B)~6~SCH K . Of course being the whore player that you are, you always guess it correctly :P

3(B)~6~SCH K should beat 224B~DNS B (i should test if maybe i can even get a SCH B in instead).
Btw i am not sure if it applies to omega but generally siegfrieds right side is the weak one, so doing 889 works better (on 1P that is).
 
ChaosK said:
Look closer. Its a mixup between me doing 3(B)~SCH K and me doing 3(B)~6~SCH K . Of course being the whore player that you are, you always guess it correctly :P

3(B)~6~SCH K should beat 224B~DNS B (i should test if maybe i can even get a SCH B in instead).
Btw i am not sure if it applies to omega but generally siegfrieds right side is the weak one, so doing 889 works better (on 1P that is).
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Yeah, I think it does apply to Omega. I always step to Sieg's right to counter 3(B) as moves like step > DNS B aren't so effective in the other direction. It's also the same side I get my "you're mine" grabs from :D
 
Let's say Siegfried does 3(B)~SCH and then he can choose to do 1 of 3 SCH options (4 with meter, 5 if you continue the string). Let's see how his opponents can beat all 3 of them (number 4 and 5 have the same start up) with one move and if there's anything Siegfried can do to avoid these situations (stance cancels, transitions, steps).
(Well I’m not quite sure if you'll get it, but I used 1P notations for both characters so you'll understand what moves I mean. If you don’t get it, try it in practice but reverse the notations of 1 character, or tell me to reverse those here.)
Of course if you have anything better to suggest, please do; I don’t use all characters to know them inside out...
Ok, answering the OP...

A Patroklos can beat any of the SCH options with his JFT (delayed) CE and 4B. The last two don’t work on tip range.
Siegfried cannot really avoid the CE, but he can avoid 4B if he goes for 2B+K and then attacks, or if he wants to risk, goes for B+K~SBH K_K BE. There's nothing Siegfried can do to avoid the JFT.

Aeon can beat any of Siegfried's SCH options with 88(3)B, 4B and his CE. The last two work on all ranges. 4A doesn’t work against SCH K when Aeon’s back is against the wall.
Siegfried can’t do anything to avoid the CE but he can avoid 4B with 8B+K or entering SSH and doing SSH K_A. To avoid 88(3)B, Siegfried can realign and attack, or stance cancel and guard.

Delayed 33B
Gets beaten by realing~SCH B_K

At both tip and close range Astaroth can beat any of Siegfried's SCH options with 88[9]K, which requires a special timing.
Siegfried can simply do a stance cancel and guard of just realign and attack.

Cervantes can beat any of the SCH options with his CE at any range and aB at close range, though he and Siegfried both get hit against SCH K.
Siegfried cannot really avoid either the CE or aB.

At close range Dampierre can beat Siegfried's SCH options with his CE and 77B. Both work at close range.
If Dampierre goes for his CE, Siegfried can just wait till the aGI frames end and then whiffpunish him. If he goes for the meterless option, either stance cancel and guard or realign and attack.

Devil Jin can beat all of Siegfried's SCH options with 88B or 88A at close range. (They both may require a bigger step)
In order any of them, Siegfried can either realign and attack or stance cancel and guard.

Ezio can beat any of Siegfried's SCH options with his CE. This doesn't work at tip range.
Siegfried can't really do anything to avoid it.

Hilde can beat any of Siegfried's SCH options with her 88B or her CE at any range. Oddly, SCH K BE's second hit tracks Hilde's 88B and hits her at close range, while at tip range in this situation you both get hit.
If Hilde has a full bar and wants to use it unfortunately you can't really do anything to avoid it. However if she goes for her meterless option you can realign and attack (Using SCH AA will get you hit because of Hilde's TC), or use 8B+K and attack or stance cancel and guard.

Ivy's 3B can beat all SCH's options but you both get hit if you go for SCH A. At tip range you'll both whiff.
To avoid it Siegfried can do 2B+K and whiff punish her. At mid range he can also go for 4B+K~SSH BBB.

Leixia can beat all of Siegfried's SCH options with 883B, 3B+K and CE. 3B+K doesn't work if Leixia is against the wall or at tip range. Neither does her CE work at tip range.
Siegfried can avoid getting hit by 883B if he realigns and attacks (not SCH B), or just does a stance cancle and guard. He can either do (4) or SCH 2B+K to avoid getting hit and whiff punish her 3B+K. However he cannot do anything to avoid getting hit by her CE.

Maxi can beat any of Siegfried's SCH moves with 88B at any range and his CE at close range.
Siegfried can avoid it with a stance cancel, but he can just realign and attack. However he cannot do anything to avoid the CE.

Mitsurugi can beat any of Siegfried's SCH moves with 4B at close range. That doesn’t work if Mitsurugi’s back is against the wall.
Siegfried can only do a stance cancel and guard to avoid getting hit by it.

Natsu can beat Siegfried's SCH options with A:6 or AAB. At tip range SCH A beats both of them.
You can't really do anything in this situation as Natsu's A is pretty fast. Stance cancel only works when Natsu goes for AAB.

Nightmare can beat any of Siegfried's SCH options with his CE at close range and at tip range.
To avoid this just do either a stance cancel and guard or step, or do 8_2B+K~8_2B+K, realign and attack.

Patroklos can beat any of the SCH options with his CE at close range. That doesn't work on tip range, unless you go for SCH K.
Siegfried can't do anything to avoid it.

Pyrrha can beat any of the SCH options with her 88B, 88K and CE. At tip range only her CE works.
If Pyrrha goes for either 88B or 88K Siegfried can go for a stance cancel and guard. If you want to risk, if Pyrrha goes for 88K, Siegfried can immediately go for B+K~SBH B. Another option would be to realign and then attack, but against 88B only SCH K works. As for the CE option, Siegfried can avoid it with 2B+K.

Pyrrha Omega can beat any of the SCH options with her 88 DNS B, 88B, or even her CE at close range. At tip range the last two don't always work.
Siegfried can realign and attack (options?) against her DNS. If the opponent goes for 88B, Siegfried can quickly realign and attack, or stance cancel and guard to avoid being hit by it. Other options would be to immediately go into SSH and do SSH BBB, or enter SBH and do SBH B, or enter SRSH and do SRSH K. Or you could simply realign and then immediately attack. If she goes for a CE, unfortunately there's nothing you can do to avoid it.

Raphael can beat any of Siegfried's SCH options with his CE, A+B and 884B. However the first two options don't always work on tip range.
There's nothing Siegfried can do to avoid the CE. However if Raphael goes for A+B, Siegfried can only stance cancel and guard. Against 884B, Siegfried can reallign and attack with SCH B or do SCH 8B+K ~ SCH A_K_K BE, or stance cancel and guard.

Your rival Siegfried can beat any of the SCH options with 883(B), which requires a special timing to get it TC SCH A, or 11B. From tip range he can interrupt you with his CE.
In order to avoid those you can stance cancel and guard. If you want to risk, you can go for either 2B+K or 8B+K depending on the situation. To avoid the tip range CE you can either 2_8B+K or stance cancel and guard.

Tira can beat Siegfried's SCH options with her CE (any mood). On tip range it can hit you only if you do any SCH move, but during the hits it can randomly whiff.
If you're close there's nothing you can do to avoid it. At tip range you can wait in SCH, let Tira whiff completely and then whiffpunish her.

At close range Viola can do 883(B) (not full-charged, requires special timing and position) to avoid getting hit by SCH’s options.
Siegfried can either realign and attack or do a stance cancel and guard to avoid getting launched.

At close range Voldo can beat any of Siegfried's SCH options with 88A. If you have no meter, Voldo can evade you with 4A+K and make you whiff.
To avoid 88A you can just stance cancel and guard or just reallign and then attack. Or if you want to risk, enter SBH to activate the aGI. If Voldo goes for 4A+K you can hit him with 6B+K~SRSH B, but that one randomly whiffs.

Xiba can beat any of the SCH options with 88B, 4A and his CE. At tip range SCH K BE gets beaten by Xiba's 88B and anything else whiffs. At tip range SCH K BE gets beaten by the CE, but SCH A beats the CE and anything else whiffs.
To avoid 88B just press 2B+K, let Xiba whiff, then immediately realign and attack. To avoid getting hit by 4A you could either stance cancel and guard, or realign and use only SCH K, or immediately enter SBH to activate the aGI. To avoid Xiba's CE simply do 2_8B+K, realign and attack, or stance cancel and guard.

Yoshimitsu can avoid all of Siegfried's SCH options with 2aB at close range.
Siegfried cannot do much to avoid it as it is very quick. However if Siegfried goes for a stance cancel, he'll make Yoshimitsu whiff.

Z.W.E.I. can avoid all of Siegfried's SCH options with 88(3)B.
Siegfried can avoid it if he realigns and attacks immediately, or cancels the stance and guards.

=^_^= Merry Christmas!!! =^_^=​
 
Amazing work ! (again !)
I will check it deeply when I will have more time (end of january).
If I remember good Siegfried can avoid Omega's CE with 2B+K.
 
I haven't checked all but some chars have better options against SCH. Like 99B works very well for Zwei, Aeon and Alpha (it works for alot of chars actually). Alphas JFT beats all options. With NM you could do 99K or QS~2A or just just use backstep into whiffpunish.

Backstep into whiffpunish can work for a lot of other chars too. With raph his best option seems to be QS~4B imo and omega should do QS~DNS B.

Those are the ones i remember from the top of my head.

Edit: Leixia's best option is QS~3B.
 
I'll test those and update tomorrow ^^
Does JFT beat SCH K though? It was the first move I tested and it lost to SCH K, but that could be just my poor execution :o
 
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