Discussion: Fighting Range and Power.

AKNova7

AKNova7

[10] Knight
Sure, I'll admit, having speed to rush down is always nice, but come on now, why is it that with Leixia is, to say the least, incredibly hard to get in on long ranged characters? I mean, sure, that might be "balance", but in fighting games like Soul Calibur, when it's range vs speed, unless you can skydive or break-dance kick at your opponent (Taki...) getting in on your opponent is a massive...massive task, all by itself. In Soul Calibur 5, a game where if this was Soul Calibur 4, nearly every character would be top tier, and Leixia herself would fit just fine in the balance of the old game, how are we supposed to fight long range zoning types with absolutely no moves to get in on them? We don't even have the SC4 A+K, B+K. Facing long range zoning characters is almost an automatic loss if your defense is anything less than exceptional.

Why just her? EVERY other character, quite literally, has a way to get in on the opponent.
 
Usually running around until someone wiffs something at range then dashing in with AA seems to work pretty fine.

Also gotta understand the mechanics of this game. Essentially all moves with the exception of guard breaks are negative on block. Averages on moves can go from -8 to -14 with some moves in the extremes. Gotta give a little somewhere. Block the standard BB from a character and you got 12 frames of breathing room + a chance to start up an offense. Plus she has so good tools to stay on people once you're within range.

If someone is just from afar wiff'n moves trying to be a moron and zone just wait / side step and approach.

3B is good for "footsie" oriented wiff punishes at medium range.

All i can think of for now =/
 
In the midrange B+K isnt bad to get in, wr3B isnt that slow after it.

If they're constantly using moves to space, you can play the wait game and punish thier wrong moves, as said above 3B is pretty crazy range, leads to good damage or if you're worried about spacing allows you to get free wakeups (at the cost of damage).

It would be a lot easier to give you advise if we had specifics, like what characters? what moves are they using to space you out? Are you whiffing lots of moves out of range that they're punishing or are they being the aggressor?

-orvn
 
The problem is the mechanics of the game also have globally fast 2A's that stop rush characters in their tracks. Also, imagine facing a Siegfried on an infinite stage that just....backs...up...

It's awful, to say the least. They turtle like mad, and there's no way to punish for it. Even worse, her 44B got nerfed from the last game, so baiting out someone's whiff with that is out of the question for characters with decent range. Needless to say, Siegfried vs Leixia or even Mitsurugi vs Leixia are absolutely stupid fights. Your defense has to be perfect, because, simply put, you take about 5-6 hits, and there goes your life bar. And you have to hit them more like 20 times. It's just so dumb, how could they have not realized that, while she had speed, a certain character had NO reach, NO way to get in on the longer ranged characters (at least X had a move from A+K...and you could buffer in longer ranged moves and a really good backstep...)

Leixia on the other hand....

There's only three ways for Namco to fix this. Either they can increase her damage output, make her step really good to compensate and bait out whiffs with a backstep or they can make the WR B BE impact everything. I wouldn't even complain if I had to spend meter to get in on someone. But not even THAT works. Oh, and she has 2 measly brave edges. I'm really upset because, even though I wanted to play Natsu, Leixia is natural to me, and would be my main character if I didn't get zoned out like stupidity.

Do you know I'm seriously considering playing a mainstream long-range character because the Siegfried/Rugi matchups are almost INSTANT losses?

onlyrunverynoob said:
It would be a lot easier to give you advise if we had specifics, like what characters? what moves are they using to space you out? Are you whiffing lots of moves out of range that they're punishing or are they being the aggressor?

-orvn
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Siegfried and Mitsurugi, really.

See, I don't understand Project Soul logic, honestly. They have a globally fast 2A and low kick which can be used to interrupt the opponent, right? Yet, they still insist on giving characters with really long range, amazing mix-up game, really good throws, and really high damage? They always end up back-stepping after moves, and I end up whiffing, and getting knocked down. Oh, and if I try and, you know, roll away from their weapon or something, they end up absolutely destroying me while I'm on the ground. Spacing against these characters is a serious, serious problem.

Siegfrieds just throw out agA's until they're blue in the face, and when I try and duck under it, they throw out a damn 3B and we know how that works. And I can't even punish them because I don't have enough range. It's absolutely awful.

Mitsurugi's, all they have to do is use the manual backstep after their moves. >> If I try to B+K punish them they lock onto that and just attack again, so I have to play a guessing game to even attack them.

I'm definitely a vet Soul Calibur player, but Leixia is the only character who does not have a premade way for you to get in on your opponent.
 
Versus Seig...

From my experience he tends to do 3B a lot! And Leixia has a had time punishing it since he spaces back a little if you block the 3B making it harder to land an A,A attack one of her fastest punishing attacks. However, you can step Seig to the right avoiding 3B and possibly land a CH with 88B, A, A, B etc... Besides his 3B is i18 she can beat that with a lot.

Seig trys to throw out 2a, 3a, 6a, agA, for keeping the opponent away all of those are a problem for lex as she can only punish at close range aside from agA. However, given that they tend to throw those moves out you can whiff punish with 66K which is an i15 attack beating out most of Seig's i18 good moves and being you in at the same time. Her 66A is i18 also a good punishing move and good for closing space although -14 on block most characters can't punish WELL enough for it to be a problem.

Rugi on the other hand has almost no lows and he's mid to close range like Lex but his movement is much slower. Getting in on him shouldn't at all be a problem. What moves are you having trouble with that he does?
 
ShinjiUrahara said:
Snip,

Rugi on the other hand has almost no lows and he's mid to close range like Lex but his movement is much slower. Getting in on him shouldn't at all be a problem. What moves are you having trouble with that he does?
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Not the moves, the manual spacing. Rugi's that I play tend to space themselves backwards increasing their push on block to a lot more than the range actually is. He also does TONS of damage. I almost always end up just BARELY whiffing. ><

Also, he has deceptive range, and that 4B...that awful, horrible, annoying 4B baiting move. That I'm pretty sure tracks until the last second. ><
 
Ahh... 4B yes! That is a Really good move of his and can be hard to get close because of it. With Rugi you have to play a spacing and stepping... As stated before Lex movement and speed out does Rugi and thats all the advantage she needs! With 66K 3B A+B launchers at your disposal you can strategically close in on him since he cant punish those moves! Keep that in mind and just your best stepping and spacing next time.
 
ShinjiUrahara said:
Ahh... 4B yes! That is a Really good move of his and can be hard to get close because of it. With Rugi you have to play a spacing and stepping... As stated before Lex movement and speed out does Rugi and thats all the advantage she needs! With 66K 3B A+B launchers at your disposal you can strategically close in on him since he cant punish those moves! Keep that in mind and just your best stepping and spacing next time.
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Uggh. This sounds....awful, to say the least. I'm kind of scared what would happen if I'm playing another player that has equal level of defensive skill...
 
LOL... I know what you mean, and thats exactly what happens. It comes down to who makes the less mistakes. Hey its always someone just as good or better.
 
4A+B and 44A both have aB feints that cover a lot of ground. With 44A you have a perpetual TC until the moment the feint hits and on block, you end up with the advantage. Yeah, both moves are slow and I, too, am trying to find more ways of getting in. Quake Step and 22A also have some moderate range but both are unsafe.

Luckily, the guard cancels seem to have some fairly nice options that need more discovery and experimental time and BB and 3B and FC3B all have good range. Leixia also has one of the fastest AAs out there. 66K is also still pretty fast and beats a few options, still safe on block too.

But advancing and getting in is a problem. Find approaching Cervantes and even Pyrrha (her 236B and 6B in particular) difficult to do. I guess the best option would be to wait for options to punish (and Leixia's got some good punishers like 4K, 3B, 6KK, and even 3B+K) and then stick to them like glue as best as you can. aB feints seem to help out, and like in SC4, you can 4A+B mid-string to GI and press your offensive.
 
Generals are always preparing for the next war by making plans that would have won the last war. The real problem here is a mental block. I got really frustrated the first 2 hours trying to play it like it was SC4, then SC3, then SC2. It's not any of those. Quit trying to rely on the old tools that don't work anymore. That's looking backwards and doesn't help you at all. She's not categorically and exclusively bad at closing. Get over it, or you'll spend all your time justifying why she's bad instead of working the problem.

Now, trying to use moves to get in is a nonstarter. It's gimmicky and predictable. There just aren't enough safe options for closing with moves. Use an unsafe option and get punished and wake up far away with 1/3 of your life gone. If you are struggling getting in and staying in, you can't afford that.

The daughter does not feel like the rushdown mix-up character the mother was. She seems to be much more the patient, pokey, interrupt, pacing character. Her range is deceptive. You may be trying to get closer than you need to be. She's also not going to give you half-life combos or 15 seconds of unbroken attack strings to wear down the opponent. Don't try that. Look for one or two hits at a time, then give the illusion of space and poke again when they think they have the advantage. So, the best tools I can suggest are patience, calm, and watchfulness.
 
It seems like this is the correct answer, that, well, you just have to outsmart your opponent, and play better defense, punish their mistakes. In my defense, I didn't play Xianghua as my main...ever. She was a sub in SC4, and I was quite the step abuser. The character kind of got forced on me. Came into SC5, tried playing Natsu, and she's so different I've been having quite the difficult time trying. Then I go play Leixia and...well, now the gap between her and the rest of my characters is worlds apart. I'm only frustrated she is quite literally the only character without a ranged move option.

However, you're right. This is a game of smarts, and, while difficult, just requires good spacing, and powerful defense. At the same time, she's so safe, that if you can master this type of play, she could really be a force, considering how unsafe everyone's mix up game is. Most people when you block a low are begging for an FC 3B. Even at long range. B+K also by itself seems to have decent blocking frames (speed) that you can use to examine what your opponent is likely to do if you approach. It also by itself ducks under high attacks.

I think probably the reason I'm having so much trouble is because, unlike SC4, I haven't learned the animations of every low in the game yet. My defense was based on seeing them, not reacting to them, with a few specific exceptions (The Invisible lows...) In this game, my feet are getting destroyed, and to play Leixia, I really need to work on the defense. She's so safe that a Leixia with amazing defense in terms of stepping and blocking would be a force to be reckoned with.
 
I've got similar problems with Nightmare. Fast and ranged horizontal-mediums like his 3AA and 22AA completely shut down my offense. There isn't enough time to run in with 66AA or 66K, let alone 3B or 22A. I've had some luck GI'ing from 22B+K and going prone with 1[A], but only if I'm really lucky or if the NM's mentally challenged. Against Leixia, NM could swing that sword all day with impunity. Then I switched to Taki and 66K'ed him to death. I was almost angrier that it actually worked. Ideas anyone? Just try setting the training dummy NM to spam 3AA continuously and see what you can come up with.
 
brucege said:
I've got similar problems with Nightmare. Fast and ranged horizontal-mediums like his 3AA and 22AA completely shut down my offense. There isn't enough time to run in with 66AA or 66K, let alone 3B or 22A. I've had some luck GI'ing from 22B+K and going prone with 1[A], but only if I'm really lucky or if the NM's mentally challenged. Against Leixia, NM could swing that sword all day with impunity. Then I switched to Taki and 66K'ed him to death. I was almost angrier that it actually worked. Ideas anyone? Just try setting the training dummy NM to spam 3AA continuously and see what you can come up with.
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Large swings come at the cost of large recovery. Make it miss make em pay. Or become a god and JG it.
 
brucege said:
I've got similar problems with Nightmare. Fast and ranged horizontal-mediums like his 3AA and 22AA completely shut down my offense. There isn't enough time to run in with 66AA or 66K, let alone 3B or 22A. I've had some luck GI'ing from 22B+K and going prone with 1[A], but only if I'm really lucky or if the NM's mentally challenged. Against Leixia, NM could swing that sword all day with impunity. Then I switched to Taki and 66K'ed him to death. I was almost angrier that it actually worked. Ideas anyone? Just try setting the training dummy NM to spam 3AA continuously and see what you can come up with.
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44B can help in many cases. 6KK can be useful as punish.
 
Leixia can't punish very well unless near a wall. Her ring out game is bad. Her range is bad. Her CE doesn't do a lot of damage. A lot of her moves that are used to get in, like wrB are punishable. She has the hallmarks of a mid-bottom tier character.
 
i have the exact same issues with leixia, i have a reallly hard time getting in on characters that zone me lol and especially on rugi with that 4B but now i just main astaroth and i dont have that problem anymore. tho ppl say im super noob by playing him, o well i really like leixia and i still play her more than half the time.
 
Guys, I need help one more time. One last problem. Hilde.

Holy. Jesus. Christ. Hilde. What the hell do we do here? Can someone enlighten me on something I'm missing? Please? I can deal with Siegfried now that I have my defense under control, but Hilde? That push....

xxBruhmanxx said:
i have the exact same issues with leixia, i have a reallly hard time getting in on characters that zone me lol and especially on rugi with that 4B but now i just main astaroth and i dont have that problem anymore. tho ppl say im super noob by playing him, o well i really like leixia and i still play her more than half the time.
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That 4B can be baited by using exactly the opposite of what you think. Hesitate on purpose, 44B his 4B. He'll stop before long. And don't main another character because she's not as strong, it makes you better, trust me. I know that in 4, if I played a good character, I'd probably suck now. It's better to learn and lose than win with ignorance on weaknesses...unless money is involved. Then just get that cash.
 
It's always good to play top tier characters. I consider myself lucky when characters that fit my playstyle are top tier. Playing worse characters does NOT make you a better player, it forces you to PLAY better, but someone of equal skill/knowledge of game mechanics/ect will prob be able to edge out more close matches with the top tiers.

Characters are top tier for a reason, that said, you should always play the characters you feel comfterble with. Tier charts mean nothing without proficiency anyways.

-orvn
 
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