Discussion of the Throw Break System in SC

luck factors in fighters are BAD. I'm very opposed to the 50/50 system. I do agree something needs to be implemented to buff them if thats is fixed, but as is 50/50 is not a good system at all.

I'd be a fan of timing specific escapes. If you mash too early you still take damage but less, if you tap perfectly you break it with frame advantage, and late you take the full force of it. Throws would have unique animation per button and a wrong button tap will reduce in even more damage occurring.

This system would have a lot of properties to both sides and would just feel far more skilled. I wouldn't feel like I lost because I was unlucky even though i had the timing down. It would completely stop mashing in fear of the wrong button press and the fact you will take damage if you mash to early. But you will at least get to see what throw it will be and if you're patient you can select the right option every time and then focus on proper timing.
 
Best way to grapple break?

IvyFanboy, how is a 50/50 throw break system LUCK based? The same way that predicting if an opponent will do a mid or a low? Its not luck at all; you need to get into your opponent's throw and determine which one they are going for. Will they go for the ring out throw? Or will they go for the damage throw with good wakeup because they know you will break the ringout throw?
 
Best way to grapple break?

That doesn't always work Jaxel. I'm a throw whore, Tademasu and Partisan will attest to this. I randomly switch between throws and I throw constantly. It makes it extremely difficult to break them especially when they are being changed all of the time. Luck factors into it when you get thrown in the middle of the ring.
 
Best way to grapple break?

Well maybe if people space better (and play better in general) they won't be so vulnerable to throws in the first place eh? It's not like throws have gigantic range and flawless setups.

Also I agree with Jaxel, it's prediction. Just cause you think you're doing it randomly doesn't mean it's really random.
 
Best way to grapple break?

Jaxel said:
IvyFanboy, how is a 50/50 throw break system LUCK based?
Click to expand...

Umm i think the definition of 50/50 states you have a 50% CHANCE, chance defining loosely as a random possibility and luck loosely translates to a random possibility in your favor. So yeah...I would think it's 50% luck based...by definition.

With a mid or a low you're handed an animation and can adjust to it. You never just guess a low and don't look to recorrect. Now mind you a throw has an animation that you can respond to prior to it connecting, but the selection is invisible and throws have the ability to bypass guard which gives it an edge in landign over attacks. You can always guess based on scenario but you have an equal chance of them predicting that. Point is you can have all the reaction skills you want, but there have been many matches gone a different direction because you guessed wrong.

There's no reason to support PURE luck factors in fighting games. They're based on skill and understanding. Guessing should be limited to a first assumption but given the ability to adjust if quick enough. Invisible options are pretty unneeded in any fighter, despite how impractical or limited the use may be. You can always design a much more skill intensive replacement and everyone benefits. Why opt for a 50/50 when much better systems exist that don't need a luck factor?

Mind you luck factors are present such as opting for a mind game and pressing further than what's guaranteed, but I just can't consider this one a mind game. I feel its a dated system.
 
Best way to grapple break?

You don't get it. You are only put into a 50/50 because they SUCCESSFULLY grabbed you, which is YOUR FAULT. Then you still have a chance to get out if you PREDICT which throw they will use.
 
Best way to grapple break?

As usual, I'm the only person who understands anything around here. See proof below.


Mixups are only as lucky or random as you allow them to be. Repeat after me: Mixups. Are only. As lucky or random. As you allow them to be.

Why? Because, having control = LOL WUTZ A 50/50.
 
Best way to grapple break?

Vince is right as usual!

Try to read your opponent, learn which Throws to break depending on ring positioning, use tech crouch moves if he throws all the time etc etc...in the end the throwgame creates mindgames, not just pure luck 50/50^^

When i play somenody i always remember which throws he did the last 2-3 times and depending on that + other factors i choose A or B....if the last 3 throws were all A and you broke them all, chances are quite high he might try B, isnt it? If not he is A) an idiot or B) plays mindgames, so its not 50/50 imo...

For a technique, everytime i might expect one, i mash a button, works very well for me....
 
Best way to grapple break?

What Tiamat said. If you get thrown, it's your fault for being in range of the throw, for not using a faster move,for hesitating, for not using a TCing move, for stepping too much, for being stepped, or for not predicting it and then punishing the shit out of it.

Personally, I really like SC4s throw system, except that JIing throws makes no sense to me.

Sure, it looks 50/50 on paper...but really....

You can say that about a lot of things when they arent
 
Best way to grapple break?

IvyFanboy said:
Umm i think the definition of 50/50 states you have a 50% CHANCE, chance defining loosely as a random possibility and luck loosely translates to a random possibility in your favor. So yeah...I would think it's 50% luck based...by definition.

With a mid or a low you're handed an animation and can adjust to it. You never just guess a low and don't look to recorrect. Now mind you a throw has an animation that you can respond to prior to it connecting, but the selection is invisible and throws have the ability to bypass guard which gives it an edge in landign over attacks. You can always guess based on scenario but you have an equal chance of them predicting that. Point is you can have all the reaction skills you want, but there have been many matches gone a different direction because you guessed wrong.

There's no reason to support PURE luck factors in fighting games. They're based on skill and understanding. Guessing should be limited to a first assumption but given the ability to adjust if quick enough. Invisible options are pretty unneeded in any fighter, despite how impractical or limited the use may be. You can always design a much more skill intensive replacement and everyone benefits. Why opt for a 50/50 when much better systems exist that don't need a luck factor?

Mind you luck factors are present such as opting for a mind game and pressing further than what's guaranteed, but I just can't consider this one a mind game. I feel its a dated system.
Click to expand...

I agree.

For those who don't, read this: "Oh my, I'm so good at predicting ooh-ohh" = Huh, I got lucky. Flat out fact.

One can just get the idea for betting, but one never control the odds, that's why it called gambling, XD.
SC4 throw system = "Soul Calibur: High Stakes Poker" Where the characters would actually stop fighting to sit & play odds in a table LOL.

One time playing against a grabber Rock (Good player btw just not mentioning him), I've broke all throws during the entire match during plenty of matches, but also there were entire matches that I didn't broke any throw. You know how lucky & unlucky one has to get for that to happen? XD & I wasn't randomly GAMBLING my break inputs XD. I can say that I'm a MASTER of the UNCERTAIN XD LOL XD LOL.

I vote for throws having slightly different start up animations, like Ivy's CS & SS or faster. Enough for someone with really sharp eyes & recon senses to spot it & break it. Let the noods handle the luck like they love to rely on, & gives us more possibilities for those whom CAN go beyond the luck factor.
 
Best way to grapple break?

Clearly making throws completely useless would be better than the conditional 50/50 they are now.

Because god knows throws are so strong in Soulcalibur.
 
Best way to grapple break?

-.-

Ok bare with me here guys...I know I have a degree and it's intimidating to your minds...but bare with me. I'll take it slow.

  • I'm stating the current system has flaws (it does).
  • I'm also stating that there are ideas worth exploring.
  • I am not saying my ideas presented are the perfect answer, merely suggestions to build from.
  • In no way do my suggestions render throws useless. Throws will obviously be redone in a manner to allow the new system to work. A LOT of games don't run 50/50 and throws are fully viable. The assumption a non 50/50 system is useless is baseless and halted by a history of other games to argue it.
  • Lastly I'm suggesting with so much time pass to view the flaws...why not seek improvements?

*Glen Back chalk board away*

Seriously though...this constant push to act elitist and feel superior by backing a system that has presented flaws that can be improved as is, is simply pure ignorance. We should be pushing for new developments with new games and there's not a damn reason not to. I believe don't fix what isn't broke, but there's no way you can tell me the 50/50 grab system is the shining light for all fighters to bow before.
 
Best way to grapple break?

This thread is the perfect example why we shoud all pray to god that namco is never ever going to ask for opinion on 8wayrun...so after 10 years of soul calibur people come up with the idea the throw system is not good and has flaws...wtf.

Its soul calibur, throws are like that. Are we back to the "throws are cheap" whining? Should we give them obvious animations so you can see whats coming and turtle all day? What about early break etc? Thats already in the game and if you break early you got rewarded, so stop complaining please....
 
Best way to grapple break?

IvyFanboy said:
-.-

Ok bare with me here guys...I know I have a degree and it's intimidating to your minds...but bare with me. I'll take it slow.

  • I'm stating the current system has flaws (it does).
  • I'm also stating that there are ideas worth exploring.
  • I am not saying my ideas presented are the perfect answer, merely suggestions to build from.
  • In no way do my suggestions render throws useless. Throws will obviously be redone in a manner to allow the new system to work. A LOT of games don't run 50/50 and throws are fully viable. The assumption a non 50/50 system is useless is baseless and halted by a history of other games to argue it.
  • Lastly I'm suggesting with so much time pass to view the flaws...why not seek improvements?

*Glen Back chalk board away*

Seriously though...this constant push to act elitist and feel superior by backing a system that has presented flaws that can be improved as is, is simply pure ignorance. We should be pushing for new developments with new games and there's not a damn reason not to. I believe don't fix what isn't broke, but there's no way you can tell me the 50/50 grab system is the shining light for all fighters to bow before.
Click to expand...


Either way, IFB, you really have to play the game more if you believe that about throws in this game. True enough, there are fighting games where throws are breakable the same way all day, but you have to look at the way those games are structured. With the exception of Tekken (and look at how long the list of viable throws at higher levels of play is because of it), most games make the risk for anticipating a throw (unless you just have godly reflexes) into a 50/50 itself. On top of that, those games also don't have throws with clear startup animations that can be ducked OR broken relatively late (on top of that, in a system where there's barely any reason to duck already other than, you guessed it, the threat of guessing wrong on a throw attempt!).

Really, no one's carrying themselves with a holier than thou sort of attitude at all, but you're making comments from a position of 'authority' when you seem to carry a bit of ignorance as to why things are the way they are.

Jink -

I mean this in the nicest way possible (as people seem to question my intentions with some things I say here), but you seem to think rather highly of your skills at this game while, at the same time, you've never come to play with any of the Chicago players.
 
Best way to grapple break?

No my frustration comes from the constantly ignored "why not strive for improvements". There's no reason NOT to try to improve upon it with a new iteration of the game and people are telling me directly that trying to improve something is the same as breaking it and it's simply not true. So yes I am kind of looking at you guys like idiots over this because there's no reason for that. You should ALWAYS explore new options and ways to redo things when handed a chance to make a new game even if you return to the original concept. It's laziness and anti productive on your guys's end.

Once again, is there any reason not to attempt to improve upon things? Everytime something is suggested, whether good or bad, there's always a wall of "you're just a scrub and need to learn more" thrown at the suggestion. This is illogical reasoning to thwart brainstorming processes that can only benefit games. Ideas do not have to be taken as suggested or adapted simply because it wasn't torn down, you can pull small bits from it and point out flaws to work on and it's just a beneficial thing all around. It's smarter to come to a final conclusion after having many options to explore and have argue each other than it is to hide safely behind a single strain of thought and not give anything else a chance.

So my irritation has nothing to do with me implying I'm skilled, it's simply saying you guys are counter productive and are hampering intelligent design by not letting ideas expand out of sheer ignorance. I question your guys's logic in arriving at what goes in a game, not your ultimate decisions.

I would also like to point out in one of my articles I clearly go over how to handle throws and makes fun of those who complain about being thrown in general. I will get the link in my sig redone since it broke when the site changed for benefit of the OP. It will explain how to get out of all throws.

(and where are you pulling this "I'm suggesting I'm skilled" from? I in no way implied that at any time in this conversation. Please read things instead of skimming and assuming. Once again another reason I'm read these boards with a constant hand print on my face.).
 
Best way to grapple break?

You haven't presented any compelling evidence toward them being such a big problem. Some people don't like the way they work now and seem to prefer Tekken-style throw breaks, but that doesn't say anything about the actual practicality of throws. I think Tekken-style throws are retarded and would prefer Virtua Fighter-style throws, but that doesn't mean that Tekken is broken and needs to completely revamp its throw break system.

First off, except for a few specific circumstances, throws are not that strong in Soulcalibur and never were. They are simply not a big deal, even as a 50/50. If anything they need to be made stronger. I'd be all for a g+k throw with a k break to make them a 1 in 3 break instead of 1 in 2. Do you really think that making throws easier to break would help a character like Rock?

Aside from that, high level pro gaming, and I'm talking about a much higher level than any fighting game, is chock-a-block full of randomness and 50/50 situations, from spawn points to bullet spreads. Managing those risks is a skill, and the better player always comes out ahead. It's the same with throws in Soulcalibur: breaking or avoiding them is a skill, and the better player will come out ahead.

And I don't see anyone poo-pooing the idea of improving throws, just them saying that making throws worse is a really stupid idea.
 
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