DLC Theory: "Stone" is NOT Rock

Rusted Blade

[08] Mercenary
Seeing as how we have six codenames leaked all marked as DLC characters that haven't been announced yet, and SCVI is at EVO, I'd bet they're going to announce it there. If BBTAG can get Season 2, so can SCVI.
That would add up--Season 1 will probably be pretty close to complete, if not released, by then.

It might be cool, it might be completely stupid. Safer to throw new characters bundled with the base roster so they dont rely completely on a diceroll. The very fact that Rock exists in the first place means not every design they come up with will hit the ball out of the park. I also think new movesets are a lot more work than returning ones.
Agreed as to all three points. Plus, there's so much subjectivity thrown around here as if it is some kind of empirical fact as to Rock being a "flawed" design. He was plenty popular for a long while and his moveset featured in every pre-SCVI game except one (SCV)--and the large majority of the series stalwarts were cut from that game. So what if he got the short-end of the stick when it came to balance in SCIV--big deal, it's one game.

And as you point out here (and has been said ad nauseum before in other threads) not every character has to be waifu wankfest material, nor is a development team necessarily going to predicate their design choices on a popularity analysis of each individual spot on the roster. As professional fighting game developers they understand that the roster has to be balanced and present options that compliment one-another. There's a danger of missing the forest for the trees when one tries to reduce the analysis about who will be included to a popularity contest--the roster has to work together, first and foremost because if the game fails on a mechanical level, no one will give two shits how the flaxen hair of Sophitia shines or how buxom Ivy is. Rock will be included because he's a reasonable piece of the puzzle of the game they are developing on a mechanical level and because he fits into the overall narrative and thematics they have developed for this game. Nobody needs to get a hard on over him to justify his inclusion in the eyes of a serious development team.
 
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Nyte

Fu-ma's Shadow
Rock wasn't in SCII either. I suspect he was only in SCIII and SCIV because they felt obligated to keep him around. When SCVI saw the chance to streamline the roster, they took it. The fact is, very few people would buy Rock, and while my reasons are subjective, they're ones held by many gamers. No one cried when Rock was removed, nor did anyone cry when he stayed removed.
 
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Rusted Blade

[08] Mercenary
Rock wasn't in SCII either.
If you re-read my post, you'll find that I said his moveset was in every pre-SCV game, not the character. I really don't care whether he was buried under armour and growled his lines, and I can't think of anything more tedious or pointless to the present analysis than debating whether this was a "cannon" appearance. The point is, from a gameplay point of view, he has been nearly every single iteration of the Soul Calibur franchise, bellying your insistence that he is a non-factor that nobody cares about and that the devs would never consider re-adding him--in the grand scheme, he's been missing for one game, after a five game streak that ran from the first game.
I suspect he was only in SCIII and SCIV because they felt obligated to keep him around.
Complete speculation on your part and more indicative of your own confirmation bias and willingness to make assumptions that support your conclusion than anything we have the smallest shred of evidence for.
When SCVI saw the chance to streamline the roster, they took it.
They didn't "streamline" the roster because they -wanted- the base release to have the smallest selection of playable characters since Soul Edge...they did it because of limited resources, and now that the serialized content model gives them an opportunity to re-consitute that roster, that's clearly exactly what they plan to do. Every confirmed release of season pass one and every likely fit to the codenamed six of season pass two points in that same general direction. You're working way too hard to avoid the most likely scenario here, as evidenced by every hint we have at our disposal.
The fact is, very few people would buy Rock, and while my reasons are subjective, they're ones held by many gamers. No one cried when Rock was removed, nor did anyone cry when he stayed removed.
Subjective assessments are fair enough, but you are abstracting from your own feelings a little too much, I think. Your "nobody cried" theory could easily be applied to half the roster that was eliminated in SCV (in that it's half true), and it certainly applies to just about any of the classic characters who are likely to be a part of season pass 2.
 

Nyte

Fu-ma's Shadow
The only ones I can equate safely are Snow for Setsuka and Reptile for Lizardman. Yell, Yellow and Star aren't so obvious. I'm not going to deny that Rock could be DLC, because Stone could mean Rock, but the fact is that as DLC he's a character very few would want. I know I wouldn't want him. There's a reason the first three post-launch characters are 2B from the beloved Nier: Automata and two well-liked female with Amy and Cassandra. It's because they knew they would sell. Can't say that for Rock. Sometimes, you just gotta admit when a character is truly bottom of the barrel, especially since his best traits were given to Astaroth.
 

TresDias

[06] Combatant
How is that?

A character with a cool/sexy design and a unique new gameplay style is easily more marketable than bottom-tier characters like Rock.
Well, the thoughts AMillionHP shared on this are pretty much what I was thinking.

Obviously the development team can do whatever they want -- and will, based on whatever their considerations and priorities are. We all just have our own inferences as to what their considerations and priorities are, so for some of us it's harder to imagine a new character being brought in than a character like Hilde or Algol (who we also feel do not mesh with our inferences of the development team's present considerations and priorities).

And for some of us beyond that, it's still difficult to imagine either of these two scenarios before Rock being brought in.

A gamble, but so is any DLC. It's still far safer than Rock because new stuff has appeal by virtue of being new, as in you feel good when you see it so long as they're not replacing anything people like.
By that same token, old stuff has appeal by virtue of being nostalgic. Unless we're talking about players new to the series -- in which case, Rock would be as new to them as any other character new or returning.
 
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Rusted Blade

[08] Mercenary
The only ones I can equate safely are Snow for Setsuka and Reptile for Lizardman. Yell, Yellow and Star aren't so obvious. I'm not going to deny that Rock could be DLC, because Stone could mean Rock, but the fact is that as DLC he's a character very few would want. I know I wouldn't want him. There's a reason the first three post-launch characters are 2B from the beloved Nier: Automata and two well-liked female with Amy and Cassandra. It's because they knew they would sell. Can't say that for Rock. Sometimes, you just gotta admit when a character is truly bottom of the barrel, especially since his best traits were given to Astaroth.
Alright, if your truly insist this isn't just random speculation and confirmation bias, and you are honestly very confident in the likelihood of your projections, what do you say to putting some reputation where your mouth is? :) Specifically, what do you say to this friendly wager: if Rock ends up being a part of season pass two, you'll agree to make your signature the following for a month: "Mmm-mmm-mmm, can't get enough of that Rock-hard stuff!" And if he's not in season two, you can have me say some equally eat-crow/embrassing double-entendre. What do you say? Do you really believe in your theory enough to stake that wager?
 

Nyte

Fu-ma's Shadow
Alright, if your truly insist this isn't just random speculation and confirmation bias, and you are truly confident in the liklihood of your projections, what do you say to putting some reputation where your mouth is? :) What do you say to a friendly wager: if Rock ends up being a part of season pass two, you'll agree to make your signature the following for a month: "Mmm-mmm-mmm, can't get enough of that Rock-hard stuff!" And if he's not in season two, you can have me say some equally eat-crow embrassing double-entendre. What do you say? Do you really believe in your theory enough to stake that wager?
No, wtf? That's the equivalent of eating worms in school because someone dared you to. There's no point and it's disgusting, nor will anyone really care.
 

Rusted Blade

[08] Mercenary
No, wtf? That's the equivalent of eating worms in school because someone dared you to. There's no point and it's disgusting, nor will anyone really care.
Well, not really--you're the one who, apropos of nothing, started a thread to promote this unlikely theory and thereafter defended it vigorously against all criticism. Which of course, there is no harm in. But if you were half as confident as you've claimed to be up to now, that would be a petty safe bet. But I don't think you're nearly that confident--nor should you be, given the solid refutation of your assumptions that has been presented here thus far.

But if you change your mind, just let me know what you'd have me say for my stakes--so long as its not likely to plainly give offense to some third party, I'll almost certainly take the bet, no matter how embarrassing the proposed signature, because both Ockham's razor and all of the evidence so far leave me with very little doubt that Stone=Rock. Just come up with something genuinely funny, please! If I'm going to eat my words, I'd like to at least be able to chuckle about it when I sign on.
 

Nyte

Fu-ma's Shadow
Not really--you're the one who, apropos of nothing, started a thread to promote this unlikely theory and has defended it against all criticism. Which of course, there is no harm in. But if you were half as confident as you've claimed to be up to now, that would be a safe bet. But I don't think your nearly that confident--nor should you be, given the solid refutation of your assumptions that has been presented here thus far. But if you change your mind, just let me know what you'd have me say for my stakes--so long as its not likely to plainly give offense to some third party, I'll almost certainly take the bet, because both Ockham's razor and all of the evidence so far leave me with very little doubt that Stone=Rock.
If it's Rock, I'll just be like "whatever" and move on. The reasons I don't think it's him are simple: Rock just isn't a marketable character. Plain and simple. I don't need to make pointless bets to prove that, and besides, it's not like you'd hold your end of it anyways.
 

Rusted Blade

[08] Mercenary
If it's Rock, I'll just be like "whatever" and move on. The reasons I don't think it's him are simple: Rock just isn't a marketable character. Plain and simple. I don't need to make pointless bets to prove that, and besides, it's not like you'd hold your end of it anyways.
I absolutely would. Why would you suggest otherwise? And he's not "marketable" entirely according to your (largely ficitious/highly speculative) suppositions about what goes into such a decision as a development matter, which assumptions suggest, if I can be blunt, that you don't really know so much how these decisions are actually made so much as what decisions you feel you would make if you were in the position of making them. Which are not the same thing.

Which is entirely the point of my proposing the bet--to highlight that when push comes to shove and you might actually have to stake something on your opinion--rather than just repeating it again and again while dismissing all contrary evidence when there is no consequence for it--you suddenly find you aren't nearly so capable of saying you are confident in your conclusions. Which is also completely fair, but you should at least be honest with yourself about it! But yes, if you took the bet and I lost, I would keep my end of the bargain. I'd even do it with a grin. Actually, I find being wrong more tolerable when some fun can be had with it.
 

Nyte

Fu-ma's Shadow
I'm speaking of this from years upon years of being an SC fan. Rock just wouldn't sell based on his own merit, and I think using him as DLC is a bad idea.
 

TresDias

[06] Combatant
I'm speaking of this from years upon years of being an SC fan. Rock just wouldn't sell based on his own merit, and I think using him as DLC is a bad idea.
Were we talking about Rock being the only option -- or one of a highlighted few -- I think we would be more inclined to agree.

Also, keep in mind that you're not nearly the only one around here to have been a fan of the series for "years upon years." =P
 

Macaulyn

[12] Conqueror
Okay, first off, I disagree wholeheartedly about Rock not being "sexy", he is probably one of the most targetted characters of Soul Calibur for porn art, and hell, he is a hot daddy, so if they want to exploit how hot he is, its pretty much the ONE thing Rock has going for him. Now, maybe, just maybe, "stone" COULD be a reference to Rock, but not because they would include Rock himself, but Bangoo instead, since he is Rock's son which people have asked for a lot before, specially in SC5. He looks very cool in Rock's SC1 ending, and seems old enough to be in the series beyond that point, unlike his SE little anime boy form (you can even see how hot Rock is in the first pic, look at those pecs and that ass, how can you say that isn't sexy?):



59962
 

AMillionHP

[13] Hero
A gamble, but so is any DLC. It's still far safer than Rock because new stuff has appeal by virtue of being new, as in you feel good when you see it so long as they're not replacing anything people like.
If a new character flops in design or appeal, then no one buys it and that is a considerable amount of creative work and effort wasted on that new character.

Rock will at least pull sales from anyone who mains Rock.

I dont know why you would think a large amount of people would purchase DLC characters just because they're new. It definitely makes sense that the opposite would occur. They'll wait to encounter the character online to gather as much information as possible in order to prevent wasting money on something they dont care about.
 

Nyte

Fu-ma's Shadow
If a new character flops in design or appeal, then no one buys it and that is a considerable amount of creative work and effort wasted on that new character.

Rock will at least pull sales from anyone who mains Rock.

I dont know why you would think a large amount of people would purchase DLC characters just because they're new. It definitely makes sense that the opposite would occur. They'll wait to encounter the character online to gather as much information as possible in order to prevent wasting money on something they dont care about.
You act like fighting games never have new character DLC. They do fine so long as they’re well-designed and cool which is usually the case.

“Rock will at least pull sales from anyone who mains Rock.”

As in, very few?
 

Macaulyn

[12] Conqueror
If a new character flops in design or appeal, then no one buys it and that is a considerable amount of creative work and effort wasted on that new character.

Rock will at least pull sales from anyone who mains Rock.

I dont know why you would think a large amount of people would purchase DLC characters just because they're new. It definitely makes sense that the opposite would occur. They'll wait to encounter the character online to gather as much information as possible in order to prevent wasting money on something they dont care about.
Wrong. Rock exists and he is disliked by most and liked by a very small few, few who actually would bother maining a garbage character like him, specially after Astaroth came into existance, which means that, out of preference, most people will likely ignore Rock if he is released as DLC. A new character, on the other hand, doesn't make anyone sure of whether they like it or not, because they're new and thus, will bring new experiences to players, something that they don't know, which means it has a much higher chance of being satisfying and, thus, profitable.
 

AMillionHP

[13] Hero
Wrong. Rock exists and he is disliked by most and liked by a very small few, few who actually would bother maining a garbage character like him, specially after Astaroth came into existance, which means that, out of preference, most people will likely ignore Rock if he is released as DLC. A new character, on the other hand, doesn't make anyone sure of whether they like it or not, because they're new and thus, will bring new experiences to players, something that they don't know, which means it has a much higher chance of being satisfying and, thus, profitable.
No, i think people feel less inclined to take chances with DLC in general. New characters in the base game mean they arent just paying for that alone.

You act like fighting games never have new character DLC. They do fine so long as they’re well-designed and cool which is usually the case.

“Rock will at least pull sales from anyone who mains Rock.”

As in, very few?
What exactly are you talking about? Your last example was Street Fighter 5, which is silly to compare that because its roster has more than doubled since release.

Yeah probably just as much as Hwang and Lizardman. When was the last time someone could even main Hwang?

That would add up--Season 1 will probably be pretty close to complete, if not released, by then.



Agreed as to all three points. Plus, there's so much subjectivity thrown around here as if it is some kind of empirical fact as to Rock being a "flawed" design. He was plenty popular for a long while and his moveset featured in every pre-SCVI game except one (SCV)--and the large majority of the series stalwarts were cut from that game. So what if he got the short-end of the stick when it came to balance in SCIV--big deal, it's one game.

And as you point out here (and has been said ad nauseum before in other threads) not every character has to be waifu wankfest material, nor is a development team necessarily going to predicate their design choices on a popularity analysis of each individual spot on the roster. As professional fighting game developers they understand that the roster has to be balanced and present options that compliment one-another. There's a danger of missing the forest for the trees when one tries to reduce the analysis about who will be included to a popularity contest--the roster has to work together, first and foremost because if the game fails on a mechanical level, no one will give two shits how the flaxen hair of Sophitia shines or how buxom Ivy is. Rock will be included because he's a reasonable piece of the puzzle of the game they are developing on a mechanical level and because he fits into the overall narrative and thematics they have developed for this game. Nobody needs to get a hard on over him to justify his inclusion in the eyes of a serious development team.
Considering Waifu wankfest material, i'll just say the importance of that should be considerably less significant here than any other fighting game due to CAS.