DLC Theory: "Stone" is NOT Rock

Nyte

Fu-ma's Shadow
Dead or Alive 5 introduced Marie Rose and Honoka as DLC, and they became breakout stars of the series. Killer Instinct introduced plenty of newcomers as DLC, all welcomed additions. Lizardman and Hwang just have more appeal than Rock. I hate to break it to you, but Rock is the bottom of the barrel. The reason I theorize he's not DLC is because no one would buy him. He's so low that making a brand new character is safer than him.

Here's the perception from a casual point:
  • When they see Hwang, they see a cool looking dude with a badass sword and ship tease with Seong Mi-na (being good looking doesn't hurt either for the ladies).
  • When they see Lizardman, they see a badass lizard creature that stands out in a cast of humans, and that's the definition of fun.
  • When they see Rock, they see... someone who's completely redundant with a style done better by a more popular character, with nothing that makes him stand out.
That's why introducing a new character, either a cool and/or sexy one, with a more unique style and better lore potential among others, is a better move than bringing back Rock. Even one flop DLC would be bad for this game, and Rock has that written all over him.
 

Rusted Blade

[08] Mercenary
Dead or Alive 5 introduced Marie Rose and Honoka as DLC, and they became breakout stars of the series. Killer Instinct introduced plenty of newcomers as DLC, all welcomed additions. Lizardman and Hwang just have more appeal than Rock. I hate to break it to you, but Rock is the bottom of the barrel. The reason I theorize he's not DLC is because no one would buy him. He's so low that making a brand new character is safer than him.

Here's the perception from a casual point:
  • When they see Hwang, they see a cool looking dude with a badass sword and ship tease with Seong Mi-na (being good looking doesn't hurt either for the ladies).
  • When they see Lizardman, they see a badass lizard creature that stands out in a cast of humans, and that's the definition of fun.
  • When they see Rock, they see... someone who's completely redundant with a style done better by a more popular character, with nothing that makes him stand out.
That's why introducing a new character, either a cool and/or sexy one, with a more unique style and better lore potential among others, is a better move than bringing back Rock. Even one flop DLC would be bad for this game, and Rock has that written all over him.
I don't know dude, you really do seem to really enjoy putting yourself in the place of other people and projecting your own views as to what most people will find "badass" or "lame"--generally in situations where you couldn't possible know with any degree of empirical certitude if your guesswork/personal bias confirmation really would stand. I mean, first off, I don't think most SC players likely to buy any DLC are doing it on such a superficial basis as "his sword looks cool" or "Hwang has nice abs"; most are going to look at the character's trailer and other promotional materials, view the moveset in context (to the extent that they can from such materials) and then decide if they like the flow of their style can see themselves gelling with it. Or, more likely, they are going to buy the season pass after considering whether it contains (or is likely to contain if the content hasn't all been announced yet) a selection of such characters that are balanced and varied. I really don't think the average player makes a strong call based on such abstract aesthetics as your are prioritzing. I mean, I'm sure they play a role for some, but as far as being the single determinative factor on whether a character sells, especially an individual character who most people will buy in a bundle with others? Not so much.

Also, even if they "he looks kewl" test where the extent of the thought people put into such things, I think you vastly underestimate how many people who prioritize such things also like the massive barbarian archetype. I really think you're reaching to find any kind of evidence that supports your thesis; most people don't "hate" Rock--most players don't hate any character (ok, Dampierre--some people hate Dampierre, but come'on even the devs who created him ended up thinking he was a mistake). They simply like some characters more than others. But we're down to the last few legacy characters so even if they have relatively small camps, at least they have some established fans. And dude, this is just from my idiosyncratic experience, but just about everyone I know who I have talked to about the upcoming DLC is plenty keen to see him return. If you're gonna keep insisting "everyone hates him", at least give one solid piece of empirical evidence to support it (no, the poll is not that, for all the reasons pointed out before: tiny sample size, plus its a zero sum exercise that only goes to show he doesn't get picked as #1 favourite very often, which is not the same thing as being entirely unpopular). Something, anything that would go to show that you re-asserting this over and over again is anything more than your guesswork based on really shoddy evidence that you bought into once upon a time, or even just your own feelings being projected on to someone else. Because to me this just feels like you throwing your personal feelings up as objective fact.

On a side note, how is the new Killer Instinct anyway?
 

Nyte

Fu-ma's Shadow
You're going to talk to me about "projecting my views"? Heh. Anyways, the majority of players buying this stuff are from the casual audience, where aesthetics matter a lot. Gameplay isn't the only thing that matters in a fighting game, if that were the case Marvel vs. Capcom: Infinite would've been liked, but it's not -- because it's got a great fighting system but literally everything around it is shit.

Rock is unpopular, and there's no way you can paint him as anything more. He's entirely forgettable, and as I said few even noticed he was cut in SCV compared to everyone else. I've known this because I've seen many, many complaints about it over many years, and I'm not sure if anyone brought up Rock.

Being a legacy character doesn't automatically justify their inclusion as DLC. I didn't say "everyone hates him", I said "nobody cares about him", which means that to make him DLC would be a mistake as he's a character no one asks for. Having some established fans doesn't mean a lot, because the fanbase is tiny, and as said someone with a cooler or sexy new design can easily win a much larger fanbase instantly.
  • Imagine if they saw a male character who's a dark harbinger using a reworked version of Darth Vader's style, the audience would be wowed.
  • Imagine if they saw a female character that's the sexy, dark-skinned barbarian woman rumored to have been in development, that'd sell a lot on the premise alone.
But Rock? If they trick so many people into buying a season pass just to get a character no one requested, they're going to be mad.
 
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AMillionHP

[13] Hero
Dead or Alive 5 introduced Marie Rose and Honoka as DLC, and they became breakout stars of the series. Killer Instinct introduced plenty of newcomers as DLC, all welcomed additions. Lizardman and Hwang just have more appeal than Rock. I hate to break it to you, but Rock is the bottom of the barrel. The reason I theorize he's not DLC is because no one would buy him. He's so low that making a brand new character is safer than him.

Here's the perception from a casual point:
  • When they see Hwang, they see a cool looking dude with a badass sword and ship tease with Seong Mi-na (being good looking doesn't hurt either for the ladies).
  • When they see Lizardman, they see a badass lizard creature that stands out in a cast of humans, and that's the definition of fun.
  • When they see Rock, they see... someone who's completely redundant with a style done better by a more popular character, with nothing that makes him stand out.
That's why introducing a new character, either a cool and/or sexy one, with a more unique style and better lore potential among others, is a better move than bringing back Rock. Even one flop DLC would be bad for this game, and Rock has that written all over him.
Your examples need to make sense with the context of the discussion.

First of all Killer Instinct was free to play and like, the entire damn roster was DLC. So... yeah, i'm not getting into it being good or not, i was considering playing it but still not a relevant point.

I dont think DOA was missing characters from previous games. I'll admit i'm not 100% on that because i dont play it but i just looked and didnt notice anyone who was on 3 and 4 but not on 5.
 

Crash X

[13] Hero
Can I just say that I’m very neutral about whether this DLC code is Rock? To me, if it really is Rock, then all I’d want out of him is an improved take on his fighting style with the mace. I personally don’t care that much about Rock but I’d still buy him and he may generate plenty of hype from a gameplay standpoint should he end up being fun to play.

But really who knows? This is just speculation after all.
 

Nyte

Fu-ma's Shadow
@AMillionHP

I covered DOA in the OP with the Tengu/Nyotengu thing. Anyways, you act like newcomers can't be DLC when historically they have. I don't see the problem with it, especially since SCVI only gave us two legit newcomers to begin with, both of them male and I know a lot of people want a brand new female.

You know, now that I remember, I think Okubo may have possibly alluded to that idea way back at Gamescom last year.


K. : I see smiles Will there be a new female character ?

silence

I hope so !


M.O. : That’s a pretty tricky question !
Tricky, hm? Granted, 2B hadn't been revealed yet but the context of the interview was about legit newcomers. I really wouldn't be surprised if S2 has a new girl.
 

Rusted Blade

[08] Mercenary
Tricky, hm? Granted, 2B hadn't been revealed yet but the context of the interview was about legit newcomers.
No it wasn't. I recall that interview as well and there was absolutely nothing to suggest that he was referring specifically to a new original character. And given this was just before 2B was revealed and the dev team had been keeping her licensing tightly under wraps, it's quite clear that is precisely who he was talking about, and why he was reticent to answer Kayane's question. Any more convoluted explanation is much more unlikely. I don't wish to give offense, but I have to be blunt here: this is just more of you reaching to increasingly far-fetched arguments in order to try to support the premise you began with--which is the polar opposite of deductive reasoning. You've filled four pages with arguments that mostly defy all reason (and what evidence we do have so far), all to try to turn the simplest (indeed, the painfully obvious) explanation on its head. Stone=Rock. Of course it does.
 

Nyte

Fu-ma's Shadow
The interview had Kayane referring to newcomers, as in legit newcomers. That's not the point. You arguing that Stone = Rock is getting you nowhere. Your only justification is the similarities between the names, and you can't come up with a single good reason for why he should be DLC. Dude, these codenames might not mean much of anything really, just placeholders.

All you try to do is insinuate that I'm "reaching" because I'm stating the true fact that Rock's popularity is at the rock bottom (excuse the pun). DLC has to sell, and Rock wouldn't get many buyers because no one would care about him. If it is him, then I expect him to be the lowest selling DLC by far and for there to be tons of hate comments directed towards him for being a waste.
 

Rusted Blade

[08] Mercenary
The interview had Kayane referring to newcomers, as in legit newcomers.
Why do you keep insisting upon that. Kayane's phrasing (which you must be aware of, because you linked it above is) "Will there be a new female character?" Not "a new original female character". Not "a new female character who isn't a guest. Just " a new female character". Okubo is coy, noting its a tricky question for him to answer just then and the next major announcement regarding the roster was 2B. Again homie, Ockham's razor.
Dude, these codenames might not mean much of anything really, just placeholders.
Do you honestly believe that? After Cassandra and Amy drop, there will be exactly six pre-SCIV characters left who will not have been included in SCVI at that point. Five of those same six characters have names that happen to be close synonyms to the codenames. You really think that's coincidence, that they picked the names "Stone, Snow, Yellow, Reptile and Star" and five of the six remaining legacy characters are named Rock, Setsuka (Japanese for a type of snow flower), Hwang (Korean for "yellow"), Lizardman, and Yun-seong (whose given name means "star" in Korean). You really think that's pure coincidence?
Or are you one of those utter maniacs who thinks they gave fake codenames just to troll their own potential customers for that same content? As if that's a thing that's something a major company would actually consider doing to its most loyal consumers--troll them for shits and giggles and tank any interest in the product before it even began.
All you try to do is insinuate that I'm "reaching" because I'm stating the true fact that Rock's popularity is at the rock bottom (excuse the pun).
Yeah, you keep saying "It's the truth! It's the truth", but whenever you've been challenged for any substantive evidence of this supposed state of affairs, all you can point to is your own impressionistic recollections about how often people complained about Rock vs. other characters who were absent for SCV. Do you really not understand why the rest of us don't see that as very persuasive evidence of anything?
If it is him, then I expect him to be the lowest selling DLC by far and for there to be tons of hate comments directed towards him for being a waste.
You know what, some people definitely will bitch and complain. Because that's the favourite pastime of some gamers. Some spend more time bitching about the games they supposedly are fans of than actually playing them. And I'm not saying that there's not a place for legitimate criticism, but there's a threshold where it becomes self-entitled whining more than anything of substance. And pre-judging a character before its released (hell, even announced) and getting set to to launch into that offensive just because it doesn't match what one would have added had they been in charge...well, I'll let you guess which side of that divide I think that behaviour falls on.

Come on man, the devs are the experts here and you're prepared to judge their choice a faulty one based on how "badass" you think the character looks? You know, one of the world's most famous experts on design once said "It's not my job to ask the customer what they want. It's my job to figure out what they want before they know they want it, and give it to them." Now I didn't agree with every design choice that Steve Jobs ever made, not by any stretch of the imagination, but his point there was a meaningful and salient one. And its ten times more relevant when we're talking about creative media. These people are designing a holistic product, not just aggregating a bunch of disparate statistics and making their design choices based on combining the most popular ideas; that's been tried before, and the resulting games are typically total shit. When Rock is added, I'm quite confident he will be just as complimentary to SCVI as he was to the other FIVE Soulcalibur games he featured in. Will some people complain? Yeah, of course--some people always complain. Will their gripes be particularly legitimate and worth listening to? Probably not. Meanwhile, many more of us will quietly buy Rock, and be quite happy with our purchase--if much less vocal about it than the people determined to rant and moan.
 
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Crash X

[13] Hero
no one would care about him.
Again, you don’t speak for everyone else among the SC community. So quit trying to play it off that nobody cares about Rock.

Not everyone here or all over the entire planet likes or dislikes the same characters as you do. We all have different tastes and opinions for a reason, and SC characters are no exception to this.
 
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Nyte

Fu-ma's Shadow
@Rusted Blade

Look at Kayane's entire interview. She was talking about the then-recent Azwel and ask about a newcomer. The context is obvious. And yeah, you can't take this shit at complete face value because sometimes leaks don't end up lining the way you think it would. Remember, it was leaked that Soulcalibur VI was going to Switch and skipping Xbox One. The opposite happened.

And dude, popularity of the characters matter. Why do you think the series was rebooted? Because they wanted to get Soulcalibur out of the corner SCV backed the series in, and get away from the maligned newcomers.

As I said (because clearly I can't get this through to your skull), the DLC could include Rock. I'm not saying it definitely won't be. But I'm saying he might not be because Rock is a terrible choice for a character to try to sell to the masses. Season 2 has to be enticing, and there's nothing enticing about Rock. Very few people would buy him, let alone play him. I know you might be against it, but think from the point of view of the majority of SC players. Which sounds more exciting to them:

A character that's been long-forgotten, widely seen as redundant thanks to Astaroth, and never had any real popularity to begin with...

OR

... A sexy new female fighter that adds something brand new to the series?

That's just one possibility. There are many ways this might not be Rock. We'll only find out by EVO.
 

Rusted Blade

[08] Mercenary
Look at Kayane's entire interview.
I just re-read it before responding to you to make sure I wasn't forgetting somethign relevant. I don't see where you're arriving at the conclusion that she was asking specifically about a new original character. There's nothing in there (either via explicit statement or the context/continuity of the interview questions) that suggests that to me in the slightest.

Remember, it was leaked that Soulcalibur VI was going to Switch and skipping Xbox One. The opposite happened.
Well anyone who genuinely believed that should be checked for head trauma; they aren't running on all cylinders.

And dude, popularity of the characters matter. Why do you think the series was rebooted? Because they wanted to get Soulcalibur out of the corner SCV backed the series in, and get away from the maligned newcomers.
Going back to basics to the roots sounds more like an argument for Rock than against.

Season 2 has to be enticing, and there's nothing enticing about Rock. Very few people would buy him, let alone play him.
Again, I think you might be transposing your own feelings upon others. And I'm quite confident you're going overboard and are patently incorrect when you say he "never had any real popularity to begin with".

Or....A sexy new female fighter that adds something brand new to the series?
But clearly not every character is going to be a nubile babe. That's not even true of DoA, let alone a series like Soul Calibur that has a...shall we say colourful cast of characters. Also, the entire first season was women. If we presume that the names are the people they seem to be, that means that between the two seasons there will be five women and five men added. Sounds like parity to me.

That's just one possibility. There are many ways this might not be Rock.
I guess. In the sense that one can make up as many wild guesses about alternatives as they like. Doesn't mean that all explanations are particularly likely or even remotely as close as the simplest explanation (Stone=Rock).

We'll only find out by EVO.
Ugh. Don't remind me that it's so far away. This waiting would be so much easier if we just knew basically what we would have by the end of the DLC process. Obviously Namco wants to remain non-committal while they figure out how profitable this is likely to be for them and additionally probably think that the mystery will keep buzz alive. And they may be right with regard to most players, but I'd fork over the money for four season passes right now if they'd just tell me what I'm buying.
 

Nyte

Fu-ma's Shadow
This is clearly going nowhere. I also doubt both Hwang and Yun-seong are both part of the pass, because sounds mega redundant and Hwang has more foreshadowing to join, but that's another story. And I don't think PS is thinking of gender quotas with the Season Pass. And what do you mean, "Five" men and five women? There's six characters in this pass, and going by your own logic, one doesn't have a "direct counterpart" (Yell). That could be anyone, assuming these six codenames are aligned with the most obvious regardless of it all. Hell, you could take Rock if that means Yell translates to a new female fighter...

... but again, Rock is just a terrible choice for DLC in general. That's why I'm arguing against him, because there are plenty of better options over him.
 

Macaulyn

[12] Conqueror
Again, you don’t speak for everyone else among the SC community. So quit trying to play it off that nobody cares about Rock.

Not everyone here or all over the entire planet likes or dislikes the same characters as you do. We all have different tastes and opinions for a reason, and SC characters are no exception to this.
And you should stop pretending that Rock was ever a popular character. Yes, there are people who like Rock, but there are people who like shit too. I said before and I'll say it again: all that Rock has going for him is sex appeal, otherwise he is a weaker version of Astaroth with a very small fanbase.
 

Soul

You are in too deep!
Again, you don’t speak for everyone else among the SC community. So quit trying to play it off that nobody cares about Rock.

Not everyone here or all over the entire planet likes or dislikes the same characters as you do. We all have different tastes and opinions for a reason, and SC characters are no exception to this.
You should also learn what figure of speech is. As much as i love Rock and would love to see him back, i can't deny that he's not popular at all.
 

Rusted Blade

[08] Mercenary
And I don't think PS is thinking of gender quotas with the Season Pass. And what do you mean, "Five" men and five women?
No, of course there's no such thing as strict gender quotas, but need I remind you that the only reason we're talking about the influence gender might have over the choices is that you keep insisting a "sexy female is much more likely than ugly, unappealing Rock"--completely ignoring the fact that this game already has the likes of Astaroth, Nightmare, Cervanes, Yoshimitsu, Voldo, Inferno, and Azwel? Not every character needs to be Scarlett Johannson, y'know. And I meant five men and five women between the two season passes, based on what we know of the first season pass and the likely interpretations from the codenamed six in season two.

...one doesn't have a "direct counterpart" (Yell). That could be anyone, assuming these six codenames are aligned with the most obvious regardless of it all. Hell, you could take Rock if that means Yell translates to a new female fighter...
But see that last statement ties in with what I've been getting at here: you're deeply conflating what you want with what the evidence suggests.

Anyway, I suspect you'll have apoplexy over this, but I'm fairly certain 'Yell' is Li Long. All of the other five names relate to one of the six remaining SE-SCIII character (that is to say, a character arising out of one of the games that has gone to form the basis of SCVI's plotlines and from which all of the other characters that have made it into the game so far have been culled), and Li Long would be the sixth and final such character. Furthermore, of the remaining legacy characters, he is the only one who is known to yell as his main intro dialogue. It would also explain why this sixth character does not fit the pattern of the codename being a synonym or translation; for Li Long, the translation would be "Dragon", but using Dragon as the codename would be problematic, insofar as it might lead to people expecting Aeon, based on his winged/fire-breathing moveset in SCV. So they chose a superficial detail to serve as the codename instead--specifically Li Long's constant Bruce Lee shouting impression (he basically annunciates almost identically to Maxi, but in Long's case, he uses the shouts as his intro "dialogue" as well. In fact, the only time he doesn't yell to communicate is at the end of a battle, when he sometimes says "Not bad!"; otherwise he's all shouty.)

... but again, Rock is just a terrible choice for DLC in general. That's why I'm arguing against him, because there are plenty of better options over him.
I really think you might benefit from familiarizing yourself with the concept of 'begging the question', because virtually every one of your arguments for the validity of your proposition in this thread is basically just you just restating your conclusion as if the reiteration itself is support of that conclusion. Good grief, if only I could go back in time and stop the posting of that facebook poll by telling the Namco junior exec of marketing who put it up what an absolute headache he was going to cause for the rest of us, simply because some people are willing to build elaborate theories about what they "know" about the inner life of others based on the skimpiest of non-evidence. You don't know that Rock is unpopular dude. You just don't. You think you do. But every time you (and for that matter anyone else who has made this assertion here in the past) are asked to provide even a shred of hard evidence for that assertion, all you can come up with is "Well I once heard another guy say that.." or "Well, I can't recall other people complaining about him being missing in SCV to the same degree as..." or "Come on, everybody knows it--its so obvious!" Do you know how susceptible those forms of "evidence" are to the failings of human memory and the effects of confirmation bias and other varieties of cognitive distortion? You don't know that Rock is unpopular. You feel he is, and you believe that a majority of other players would agree with you but that's an entirely different universe from having any kind of solid, dependable evidence, my friend.
 
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Nyte

Fu-ma's Shadow
Where's your proof that Rock is popular? Because this isn't something that needs "hard evidence", you can gather that just by being part of the community. Oh, and great job ignoring my point regarding sexy female vs. Rock. My point is that Rock is uncool and uninteresting in terms of design, while in comparison Astaroth, Nightmare, Cervanes, Yoshimitsu, Voldo, Inferno, and Azwel stand out a whole hell of a lot more. That, and they weren't DLC, while you're proposing Rock is. I'm trying to get across that a sexy new female character is a lot more marketable than Rock, as is a character that has a cool design in general if male. Rock is obviously not the former, nor does he fit the latter. And that's not even the point. The point is that he's just not marketable.

And dude, you're going to talk to me about confirmation biased? If anyone is guilty of it, it's you!

Just above you are two people reinforcing what I'm stating, the fact that Rock isn't popular, and you conveniently ignore them. I've spent plenty of time not only on this community, but others, and I know that Rock is a character no one cares about. It's not rocket science.

Oh, and Li Long? That would sell even less than Rock, which says a lot. There's no way it'll be Li Long either; he hasn't been part of the series since Soul Blade, nor did he have any part in this game other than some background text. Even Hwang has been built up to. That's another argument though.

Again, we'll find out at EVO. I'll be surprised if it's Rock, because they'll have a lot of confidence that a character who is as unpopular and redundant as him is good enough to sell to the masses.
 

Crash X

[13] Hero
And you should stop pretending that Rock was ever a popular character. Yes, there are people who like Rock, but there are people who like shit too. I said before and I'll say it again: all that Rock has going for him is sex appeal, otherwise he is a weaker version of Astaroth with a very small fanbase.
You should also learn what figure of speech is. As much as i love Rock and would love to see him back, i can't deny that he's not popular at all.
Yet I never even said nor pretended he was popular at all. And I’m well aware of what a figure of speech is thank you very much.
 
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TresDias

[06] Combatant
Man, all of us standing around the "Soul Edge" arcade cabinet back at Pirateland Family Camping Resort in the summer of 1996 would have never believed this argument would happen.

Rock was easily the most popular pick back then. Not that he's been anywhere close to that since, but it's just funny to me in hindsight.
A character that's been long-forgotten, widely seen as redundant thanks to Astaroth, and never had any real popularity to begin with...

OR

... A sexy new female fighter that adds something brand new to the series?
That's loaded wording. "Do you want a spoonful of what might be dog crap -- we can't be sure -- or a spoonful of delicious ice cream?"

It's also a false dichotomy you're presenting here, as though if we didn't get Rock, we would instead definitely be getting this sexy new female fighter we don't even know exists.