Most & Least Useful CEs?

Soul

Drifting Snow Blossom
Hi
I was wondering, in your opinion, what are the most & least useful CEs in the game?
The CE that benefits the character the most and vise-versa.



I apologize in advance if there's already a thread similar to this, i searched & couldn't find one.
 

AndyrooSC

IVE WAITED FOR THIS!!!
A powerful CE which complaments the character I would say is Patroklos.

Being usable for a i13 block punish/Frame trap or as a RO/ max damage combo ender.

he has so many moves that combo into it and very strong meter building to have a CE stocked like 99% of the time.
 

Party Wolf

Administrator
Aeon's CE is probably the worst since it is unsafe on hit due to ukemi just guard. Even if you can't ukemi just guard, it is a knockdown that puts him at frame disadvantage and Voldo can punish it on hit too. Most powerful CEs are probably Alpha, Algol, Viola, and Patroklos.
 

AndyrooSC

IVE WAITED FOR THIS!!!
Aeon's CE is probably the worst since it is unsafe on hit due to ukemi just guard. Even if you can't ukemi just guard, it is a knockdown that puts him at frame disadvantage and Voldo can punish it on hit too. Most powerful CEs are probably Alpha, Algol, Viola, and Patroklos.
Voldo can punish it on hit without jug?
 

Slade

[14] Master
Here's my list of the most useful. Apart from αPat's CE at #1, it's in no particular order.
  • αPat's CE. I think it's really in a league of its own. Most other CEs are simply part of a character's toolkit, but what's so nasty about αPat's is that even without it, αPat has everything he needs to be competitive. When added on top of that, it serves as the perfect tiebreaker in the close situations that are intrinsic to the highest levels of play. It's like how the house always wins on draws in blackjack.
  • Viola's CE. Gives three risk-free mixups. First mixup gives a combo if the opponent guesses wrong. Second one gives heavy mixups if the opponent guesses wrong. Third one gives slight frame advantage if the opponent guesses wrong. Basically another free tiebreaker CE, but arguably riskier to apply than αPat's.
  • Cervantes' CE. Similar reasoning to αPat's. Pros are that it's extremely fast, has infinite range, and is a big part of his combo game. Cons are that it's high and does comparatively low damage (except in combos).
  • Patroklos' CE. i13. 90 damage. Rings out. Always has meter for it. Annoying to punish for some characters. Frame traps after many of Pat's moves. Tracks to one side (which is useful despite 66G; people like to attack out of sidestep, and this can catch that).
Honorable mentions:
  • Pyrrha Ω's CE. i13. 90 damage. Good range. Combos off a lot of stuff. Tracks both sides slightly. No real downsides.
  • Ezio's CE. i13. 90 damage. Decent range. Good clean hit chance for 110+ damage.
  • Astaroth's CE. Big coin toss. Damage ranges from heavy to hilarious.
Crap CEs:
When it comes to the other notable CEs, Aeon's is easily the worst. Crap damage, slower than most (i14), whiffs, unsafe on hit against some characters. It's his fastest forward RO attack though, so it can be used to punish -14/-15 for ringouts when the opponent is positioned appropriately.

With regards to another character I play, I'm of the opinion that Algol's CE is mostly useless. Unlike Aeon's, it's not a bad CE, but it's gimmicky. The meter cost/damage ratio for his BEs is better and he can use them off almost all of the same moves that combo into CE. His CE can be used for super long range whiff punishes (which can lead to ringouts), but the opponent has to be whiffing at long range in the first place, which isn't likely to happen if he knows the matchup. Again, gimmicky.

Hilde, Leixia, Maxi, Mitsurugi, Pyrrha, Raphael, Tira, Voldo, Z.W.E.I., Yoshimitsu, and Siegfried form the middle class of CEs. They're not incredible, but they fit with the characters well and have their applications. They're nicely balanced between impact time, damage, and combo ability.

When it comes to certain CEs (Astaroth, Ivy, Nightmare, Dampierre, Xiba), I don't think these can be as easily placed. When we talk about how "good" a move is, we're intuitively estimating its expected risk/reward over a large number of repetitions, but when it comes to the typical time scales we see in SCV (FT3s), I'm not sure if this is a very good measure. CEs are used relatively rarely as is due to the meter restriction, and these 5 CEs in particular are pretty much all or nothing in their risk/reward, which makes it more difficult to rank them.
 
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Party Wolf

Administrator
Algol's CE extends his ringout potential and links in places where the brave edges do not. Not to mention it is hard to block punish since it forces crouch and has infinite range. Crap CE? Really?
 

Alex.J

[14] Master
Worst CE: Aeon Bad frames, tends to whiff, can get ukemi JG'd, and the damage is pretty average for a CE.

Best CE: Although not as obvious. I think I'd give it to Pat. His CE can be chained off of tons of his moves. It has great frames, great damage, great ringout potential. And the worst part, Pat builds meter like a madman so he can pump out a bunch of CE's every match.
 

ZER0

[13] Hero
Just want to throw out that Aeons CE also has a tendency to ring himself out...so you can add that to the ever-growing list of reasons of why his CE is the worst, not to mention it also has a tendency to whiff the rest of the animation on hit if the angle is funny
 

mkl

[00] Signia's Cheerleader
Here's my list of the most useful. Apart from αPat's CE at #1, it's in no particular order.
  • αPat's CE. I think it's really in a league of its own. Most other CEs are simply part of a character's toolkit, but what's so nasty about αPat's is that even without it, αPat has everything he needs to be competitive. When added on top of that, it serves as the perfect tiebreaker in the close situations that are intrinsic to the highest levels of play. It's like how the house always wins on draws in blackjack.
  • Viola's CE. Gives three risk-free mixups. First mixup gives a combo if the opponent guesses wrong. Second one gives heavy mixups if the opponent guesses wrong. Third one gives slight frame advantage if the opponent guesses wrong. Basically another free tiebreaker CE, but arguably riskier to apply than αPat's.
  • Cervantes' CE. Similar reasoning to αPat's. Pros are that it's extremely fast, has infinite range, and is a big part of his combo game. Cons are that it's high and does comparatively low damage (except in combos).
  • Patroklos' CE. i13. 90 damage. Rings out. Always has meter for it. Annoying to punish for some characters. Frame traps after many of Pat's moves. Tracks to one side (which is useful despite 66G; people like to attack out of sidestep, and this can catch that).
Honorable mentions:
  • Pyrrha Ω's CE. i13. 90 damage. Good range. Combos off a lot of stuff. Tracks both sides slightly. No real downsides.
  • Ezio's CE. i13. 90 damage. Decent range. Good clean hit chance for 110+ damage.
  • Astaroth's CE. Big coin toss. Damage ranges from heavy to hilarious.
Crap CEs:
  • Aeon's CE. The worst. Crap damage, slower than most (i14), whiffs, unsafe on hit against some characters. It's his fastest forward RO attack though, so it can be used to punish -14/-15 for ringouts when the opponent is positioned appropriately.
  • Algol's CE. Unlike Aeon's, it's not a bad CE, but it's mostly a gimmick. The meter cost/damage ratio for his BEs is better and he can use them off almost all of the same moves that combo into CE. His CE can be used for super long range whiff punishes (which can lead to ringouts), but the opponent has to be whiffing at long range in the first place, which isn't likely to happen if he knows the matchup. Again, gimmicky.
Hilde, Leixia, Maxi, Mitsurugi, Pyrrha, Raphael, Tira, Voldo, Z.W.E.I., Yoshimitsu, and Siegfried form the middle class of CEs. They're not incredible, but they fit with the characters well and have their applications. They're nicely balanced between impact time, damage, and combo ability.

When it comes to certain CEs (Astaroth, Ivy, Nightmare, Dampierre, Xiba), I don't think these can be as easily placed. When we talk about how "good" a move is, we're intuitively estimating its expected risk/reward over a large number of repetitions, but when it comes to the typical time scales we see in SCV (FT3s), I'm not sure if this is a very good measure. CEs are used relatively rarely as is due to the meter restriction, and these 5 CEs in particular are pretty much all or nothing in their risk/reward, which makes it more difficult to rank them.
Idgaf if it's i16, Yoshimitsu has a top 5 CE. Half life, loads of applications, pretty much single handedly keeps Yoshi from being low tier. And Aeon's is faaaaaaaaaar worse than Algol's.
 

Slade

[14] Master
Algol's CE extends his ringout potential and links in places where the brave edges do not. Not to mention it is hard to block punish since it forces crouch and has infinite range. Crap CE? Really?
And Aeon's is faaaaaaaaaar worse than Algol's.
Please ignore the "Crap CEs" label and re-read what I wrote. I specifically stated that it's not a bad CE. I even italicized the word “bad.” The label was meant to indicate a change in the list's topic because I was expecting the bad CEs list to be a lot longer, but it's only 2 items so I can rewrite that part to be clearer.

EDIT: Removed the "Crap CEs" bit and changed the starting sentences for the paragraphs after it. I left the content the same because if I do backtrack on my claims, I'd rather it occur in later discussion than through editing what I originally said.

Idgaf if it's i16, Yoshimitsu has a top 5 CE. Half life, loads of applications, pretty much single handedly keeps Yoshi from being low tier.
The top four that I gave I'm pretty set on. I could see Yoshi's (or Hilde's) CE knocking Ω's or Ezio's CEs down a peg though. I'm not sure that 20 more damage makes up for the extra three frames and lower range relative to Ω's.
 
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Draggonnfs

[12] Conqueror
I think some of the best CEs are Astaroth's, Ivy's and Nightmare's, although I hate all of those characters. Ivy's and Astaroth's are grabs and less experienced players won't know what to do, and Nightmare's is extremely powerful and has a guard impact, but it's extremely vulnerable, you can low attack him (I think) and grab him. Also a very useful is Cervantes' CE for similiar reasons as Ast and Ivy, and you can also use it midair.
 

JAGTHEGEMINI

[12] Conqueror
I think some of the best CEs are Astaroth's, Ivy's and Nightmare's, although I hate all of those characters. Ivy's and Astaroth's are grabs and less experienced players won't know what to do, and Nightmare's is extremely powerful and has a guard impact, but it's extremely vulnerable, you can low attack him (I think) and grab him. Also a very useful is Cervantes' CE for similiar reasons as Ast and Ivy, and you can also use it midair.
Astaroths ans Ivy´s are imo not so good.. Way to specific and situational.
 

ZER0

[13] Hero
I think some of the best CEs are Astaroth's, Ivy's and Nightmare's, although I hate all of those characters. Ivy's and Astaroth's are grabs and less experienced players won't know what to do, and Nightmare's is extremely powerful and has a guard impact, but it's extremely vulnerable, you can low attack him (I think) and grab him. Also a very useful is Cervantes' CE for similiar reasons as Ast and Ivy, and you can also use it midair.
it's difficult to place Asta's CE on the list...while it is a throw and an unreactable one at that, you can't really cash out any decent dmg without having to spend additional resources...something such as Ivy's CE is a garuanteed 100 dmg, but I believe you can react to the startup flash...
As for Nightmare, sure enough it does the most dmg out of any CE if it hits raw...but this is a very rare case and players know how to bait this out and handle it effectively...I mean by this point EVERYONE knows how to handle Nightmare, the GI will repel high's, mid's and low's...however a simple sidestep and you're lined up for your opponents death-combo of choice...The THREAT of the CE makes the CE itself seem more powerful than it actually is...and so your opponent keeps that fact in the back of their minds and they begin to approach you more cautiously.

Moreover these CE's are not as accessible or as versatile as other characters CE's, such as the Greeks whose CE not only act as combo extenders/enders but also act as super-powered punishers.
 
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fukou_da_man

[12] Conqueror
it's difficult to place Asta's CE on the list...while it is a throw and an unreactable one at that, you can't really cash out any decent dmg without having to spend additional resources...something such as Ivy's CE is a garuanteed 100 dmg, but I believe you can react to the startup flash...
As for Nightmare, sure enough it does the most dmg out of any CE if it hits raw...but this is a very rare case and players know how to bait this out and handle it effectively...I mean by this point EVERYONE knows how to handle Nightmare, the GI will repel high's, mid's and low's...however a simple sidestep and you're lined up for your opponents death-combo of choice...The THREAT of the CE makes the CE itself seem more powerful than it actually is...and so your opponent keeps that fact in the back of their minds and they begin to approach you more cautiously.

Moreover these CE's are not as accessible or as versatile as other characters CE's, such as the Greeks whose CE not only act as combo extenders/enders but also act as super-powered punishers.
tfw you punish NM CE with NM CE
 

HolyCarp

[14] Master
Astaroths ans Ivy´s are imo not so good.. Way to specific and situational.
I'd argue they're decent. It's pretty obscene damage from an unseeable, unblockable horizontal. Asta's can RO (so CE/iFC 3K mixup) and wallsplat with meter. They are guaranteed post-GI, which is a really big deal now that GI JG is a thing, and they can be used as punishers (block, JG, whiff, or duck punish on stuff like grabs or a JG~duck on AA).

I do think Ivy's CE compliments her game better than Asta's though, since she has good anti-duck tools like left step~3B and iFC 1B, while Asta needs his meter to keep them afraid of 66K BE and 22B BE.

But as people have said, it's hard to compare their CEs with conventional ones.
 

Slade

[14] Master
There's an assumption that goes into any inter-character move ranking with regards to whether the moves should be considered in a vacuum or holistically. Conclusions derived from the latter assumption will biased toward the character who is overall better, but the former will necessarily have to disregard a number of very real considerations, such as how likely it is for that character to land a move that will combo into the CE. Hilde's CE just isn't the same without C2A. I think the unfortunate result of this is that the former assumption isn't workable and the latter just results in what's more or a less the tier list. I kind of vacillated between the two when writing my first post, so I should probably rework it and state my assumptions where they're relevant.

I do think Ivy's CE compliments her game better than Asta's though, since she has good anti-duck tools like left step~3B and iFC 1B, while Asta needs his meter to keep them afraid of 66K BE and 22B BE.
4B adds up pretty quickly since it's so easy to land multiple in a row. Asta's CE also gives him big damage against -17 or worse stuff where he'd otherwise only get 66B or a throw attempt. I think it's also harder (impossible at most ranges?) to backstep Asta's CE after getting hit by 4B or 4K than it is to backstep Ivy's CE after 3K or 3A (possible at most ranges?).