Natsu Questions And Answers / General Discussion

[ChaosK]

Then you're not having trouble , . You're having trouble with the SCH mixup. UnseenWombat is correct, AAB or A:6 can beat out [3]B, B, but the opponent won't keep doing that string if you keep punishing it. They will use other moves from the stance such as SCH K (quick knees), SCH A (horizontal high stepkill), or the change to BH (the stance where it looks like Sieggy is chilling) where he can crouch your highs.

Essentially you're going to need to read your opponent and adapt. Take note of which move the opponent goes for regularly after [3]B (e.g. SCH B), then apply an appropriate response.

Possible responses to [3]B

Sieggy: SCH B = Natsu: AAB or A:6
Sieggy: SCH A = Natsu: Distorted Breeze (2B+K) or any TC move
Sieggy: SCH K = Natsu: Distorted Breeze (2B+K) or any SS move
Sieggy: BH = Natsu: A+B (perform after the BH GI effect though)

Actually AAB and A:6 beat all the options you mentioned, so its actually not a mixup and guaranteed.
The thing is A:6 only is guaranteed if you actually do hit the JF, so its really important that you learn to get it consistently.

AAB beats all options too (its faster than SCH A, B and K) and SBH does not activate in time for the GI or TC (its i9) BUT as Unseenwombat mentioned he can read you correctly and cancel his stance into 3B (the second 3B is necessary or the second hit of AA will hit him). If he TCs your AA you were too slow.

If he uses 3B at tip range you can also try to backstep, it should evade everything he can do.
Then Whiff punish with 66B or Bomb.
JG is also helpful because he has no low from Chief Hold although it hurts if you miss the timing
And when going for JG you may give him the chance to stance dance.

66B and bomb are good but against 66B he could do 2B+K and whiffpunish and bombs might get interrupted.
Afaik 66K should beat all options.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

Actually AAB and A:6 beat all the options you mentioned, so its actually not a mixup and guaranteed.
The thing is A:6 only is guaranteed if you actually do hit the JF, so its really important that you learn to get it consistently.

AAB beats all options too (its faster than SCH A, B and K) and SBH does not activate in time for the GI or TC (its i9) BUT as Unseenwombat mentioned he can read you correctly and cancel his stance into 3B (the second 3B is necessary or the second hit of AA will hit him). If he TCs your AA you were too slow.

Thanks for the heads up, I feel like a fail now -_-. In Sieg matchups, I always focus alot on mix-ups that I forget that simple AABing can get you out of a lot of Sieg's jazz. All things considered, Natsu actually is the one that gives Sieg a hard time as opposed to the other way around based on tools, however Sieg's stance mix-ups and zoning make him a formidable opponent in the right hands.

I'll commit it to memory now.

SCH B }
SCH A }= AAB
SCH K }

Back to the lab to practise my AAB spam!

 

[ChaosK]

I would actually advice to practice A:6 because cancel into 3B is no joke, if you get too predictable with your AAB punishes.
On the other hand most sieg players aren't even aware that that works, so you might get away with it.

 

[FleshMasher]

66B and bomb are good but against 66B he could do 2B+K and whiffpunish and bombs might get interrupted.
Afaik 66K should beat all options.

I didn't mean 66B and bomb should just be thrown out.
I meant you wait for Siegfried to whiff something from SCH, then Whiff punish.
Although Bomb could be too slow for that in some cases if you want to react to the whiff.

 

[ChaosK]

You dont need to wait for a whiff on tip range though (also no need for backstep), 66K already beats everything. Remember that at tip range his SCH K wont work, so his fastest attacks are i18.
66B works too for that matter but it can get beaten by 2B+K.

 

[FleshMasher]

Wouldn't i 66K into his SCH K if he decides to do it anyway?

 

[ChaosK]

From my testing the SCH K (i10) whiffs and then your 66K (i17) connects.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

I would actually advice to practice A:6 because cancel into 3B is no joke, if you get too predictable with your AAB punishes.
On the other hand most sieg players aren't even aware that that works, so you might get away with it.

I usually use AAB due to the consistency of the input, however I have trained my A:6 well for block punishes but still occasionally get A6 or the A:6 comes out a frame or 2 late. A:6 is i16 as a mid if I'm not mistaken (while being i10 as a high).

 

[UnseenWombat]

Yeah, everyone beat me to it, but Natsu is the only one that can punish Sieg's 3[ B], SCH K BS. Most Siegs I run across throw that crap out like it's candy because it works on every other character who tries to interrupt after 3[ B]. I can only imagine the looks on the Siegscrubs faces. None of them that I've run across so far know to G cancel. They just keep doing it and getting stuffed.

 

[ChaosK]

Yeah most siegs dont know how to anti-anti 3B. On the other hand most people dont know how to anti 3B in the first place.
Normally you beat 3(B) with a mixup of 8wr TC (to beat SCH A, B and K) and launcher (to beat realigning, which is siegs answer to 8wr TC).

So in natsus case that would be something like a mix between 99B/66B, which is actually a pretty good option if you dont feel confident in your A:6's.

There are other chars who can outright blockpunish 3B though. Yoshi (instant dickpunch) and Alpha (delayed twister) can do it meterless too and with a few exceptions, the whole cast can with their CEs (because of the invulnerable frames).

 

[firefury007]

Wow thanks for the help guys. I trained to time the AAB( and A:6 ) right. It worked almost every time now so i guess i finally got a bit of structure and understanding of Siegs different mix-ups. I just got a last lil question though. I tried using B K 4 too and it worked every time. Im just not sure if its guaranteed after Siegs 3

 

[ChaosK]

Wow thanks for the help guys. I trained to time the AAB( and A:6 ) right. It worked almost every time now so i guess i finally got a bit of structure and understanding of Siegs different mix-ups. I just got a last lil question though. I tried using B K 4 too and it worked every time. Im just not sure if its guaranteed after Siegs 3

That loses to his SCH K or he could backstep it. If you want a similar option i would suggest using either 66B or 66K.
It also doesn't deal a lot of dmg which is the same problem as with AAB. I mean we are talking about punishing a launcher here, so you want to hurt him as badly as possible for it.

Imo AA punishes are just not scary enough for that matter.

 

[firefury007]

Ok thanks ill try using those too :)

 

[friend2luck]

8k - FC 2a+b seems to work as a combo although with the small dmg and it not doing to much for you, i dont think you can make much of it..

 

[kAb]

Couple random tidbits.....

I've been practicing my JUGs lately and have found 3 common ones where natsu gets a free 4a+b.

Nm 1a6, after things like ch 6k or 66a

Maxi 66b, after things like 11b or stance b+k auto gi

Pyrrha 66b be, after things like ch 1k or 22a. You need to jg the first part and step the 2nd then bomb.

This is something I think everyone should practice as its where the meta is headed. Huge momentum shift from opponent getting further guaranteed damage or a tech trap to eating 1/3 or 1/2 health bomb combo.

 

[Nimrodent]

Hey guys,
Yesterday I ran into a low ranked Viola player online who pulled off some incredibly intense hit strings. I hesitate to call it combos but basically the first two times we met he shut me down completely with juggles into ground hits into new juggles that led into seemingly inescapable strings that took off about half or more of my life.

I figure I'm doing something stupid to get stuck in these really long loops, so my general question is, is there something you should think about when facing Viola? Do I need to ukemi, air tech, or tech roll to escape? I'm kinda lost when it comes to these recovery options, actually. Is there a good resource that explains exactly what your recovery options are and how to execute them?

I understand if this question is hard to answer without a video so I put the replay in my online profile if that helps?

 

[Force_of_Nature]

*Snip*

Viola is pretty much based around ridiculous juggles and constant pressure so what you experienced is likely very normal. The grounds hits are also part of the continuous juggles (especially with SET 2B+K BE), though the only thing you can do is try to find an opening to ukemi tech.

When facing Viola, you need to try your best to not be too defensive. Viola sucks defensively and can't punish for shit, but can shift momentum extremely easily. As Natsu, you can use your speed to try and suppress Viola as she can't punish very much beyond using a simple AA or BBB. Try to find opportunities to go under highs such as high orb hits with a 66B. Viola also sucks at dealing with step if she's outside of her melee range so you can abuse or fish for sidestep attacks such as 22B. If it helps, Viola's SET 3B is punishable (by A:6 I believe or a simple AA). All orb hits can also be blocked standing or crouching.

Posting the video of your replay would be helpful! I'll let you know that Viola is extremely fucking annoying to fight, but if she's beating Natsu, it's because she's getting off her ridiculous safe setups for stupid damage or she's poking the shit out of you in close halting any of Natsu's chances to get big damage. Essentially you're going to do a combination mid-range zoning and close-range suppressing. It's a game of don't let Viola run her shit on Natsu.

 

[Nimrodent]

Posting the video of your replay would be helpful! I'll let you know that Viola is extremely fucking annoying to fight, but if she's beating Natsu, it's because she's getting off her ridiculous safe setups for stupid damage or she's poking the shit out of you in close halting any of Natsu's chances to get big damage. Essentially you're going to do a combination mid-range zoning and close-range suppressing. It's a game of don't let Viola run her shit on Natsu.

Thanks for the tips! In our third match, I went all out aggression with a ton of step (because I figured if I keep stepping, she can't trap me with the orb) and I ended up doing much better and winning the match. The replay of my first lost match is in my profile ("Upload" function in the PSN version) so if you search out my profile you could watch it, I think?

Another thing: a couple of times she fired off her CE and I'm not sure what the best strategy here is. If I keep blocking the orb, she can kick my ass with unblockables or just put me back into the "blender".

 

[Force_of_Nature]

Thanks for the tips! In our third match, I went all out aggression with a ton of step (because I figured if I keep stepping, she can't trap me with the orb) and I ended up doing much better and winning the match. The replay of my first lost match is in my profile ("Upload" function in the PSN version) so if you search out my profile you could watch it, I think?

Another thing: a couple of times she fired off her CE and I'm not sure what the best strategy here is. If I keep blocking the orb, she can kick my ass with unblockables or just put me back into the "blender".

No problem, I try to help out other Natsu's when I can. Stepping a lot while outside of Viola's BBB range is a good idea. She has very limited ways to discourage step. She's got 66AAB, 1A+B (a highly reactable low, that Natsu can A+B over) and ORB 4A+B (notation?). 66AAB is rubbish on normal hit due to all the hits being high, 4A+B is essentially just a poke and 1A+B becomes a liability, like 8A+B, once you start looking out for it.

Viola's CE should be blocked while you're looking at what she's trying to do. Use standing block while preparing throw breaks (SET A+G is usually more dangerous unless your back is to an edge), which means that you only really need to look out for her 1K low poke kick in an attempt to open up your guard. If Viola goes for her UB, while you are in the CE vortex, you're pretty much screwed if the 22 damage it does will defeat you. Your only option is an extremely difficult JG of the UB. I hate the near guaranteedness of her CE + UB but at least the damage is pitifully low for a CE.

Also, if you can GI the orb then that is gold against Viola!

 

[Airen]

IIRC, Viola's SET 3B is -14 on block, so you can do a 4B or 3KK to punish instead of just AA, all depending on range, but I don't remember the range on her 3B being all that great anyway, so you could either use 4B or A:6 to punish for better damage than 3KK or AA.